BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Bollocks]

For those thinking of voting remain for their kids, you might want to consider the following by David Blake (phD in Financial Economics; London School of Economics; 1986; MSc(Econ) in Monetary Economics; London School of Economics; 1978; BSc(Econ) in Economics; London School of Economics; 1975)

Staying in the EU will be CATASTROPHIC for state and private pensions, expert warns

Paper on the flawed models used by the remain camp and the treasury, leader of the treasury is a former Goldman Sachs banker, not surprising anyone.

Measurement without Theory:
On the extraordinary abuse of economic models in the EU
Referendum debate
Grossly exaggerated impact of the economic consequences of Brexit and no analysis of the
risks from remaining in the EU from the Treasury’s two ‘dodgy dossiers’

More on the phoney forecasts in the Spectator.

Bank of England and Treasury have been ‘peddling phoney forecasts’ to scare people into backing ‘Remain’.

Whether you are voting In or Out, the fact remains there are serious issues with the EU. I for one would much rather be outside the EU when/if it implodes and be able to control our own destiny, than sinking with the ship that could be the EU.

The EU is a huge beast, hard to control and manage and it will only get bigger, much to the detriment of the people. Just look at Greece. Yes they played a part in their own down fall, a big part, but the crushing austerity has made things even worse with no end in sight. And German companies have moved swiftly to pick at the bones of Greece as she is forced to sell off her National Infrastructure.

https://www.rt.com/business/312852-g...privatization/

Bad economics is triggering me.

Voting leave, would mean that bank passporting; the main reason the UK finance service is doing well, would disappear decimating the Finace service, which right now composes around ~10 to ~15% of UK's GDP. Hamburg ( I think that's called) would gladly accept the role the UK is leaving behind. And if you wanted it back then you would have to accept all of the EU's policies as if you had not left.

I don't know if this video has been posted already, but here it goes:

[vbnm247]

Bad economics is triggering me.

Voting leave, would mean that bank passporting; the main reason the UK finance service is doing well, would disappear decimating the Finace service, which right now composes around ~10 to ~15% of UK's GDP. Hamburg ( I think that's called) would gladly accept the role the UK is leaving behind. And if you wanted it back then you would have to accept all of the EU's policies as if you had not left.

I don't know if this video has been posted already, but here it goes:

Then prepare to be triggered for the rest of your life. History is littered with bad economics and will continue to be littered with bad economics going forward.

At the end of the day all economists for both leave and remain are guessing and estimating.

[psyquest]

Also for those that still have eyes too tainted by their own racist or xenophobic views:

read this and diggest it:
https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06...eo-goes-viral/


watch this slowly https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/

[Slant]

At the end of the day all economists for both leave and remain are guessing and estimating.

They're really not. What you said is something I'd expect from some construction worker not understanding anything about economics. To him it may seem like magic, GDP is just a silly acronym and who cares about a national budget anyway when all you worry about is how much your dental next week costs? To HIM it may seem like guessing. But for academics that actually know their stuff, it's quite frustrating that nobody can see these relations between economics and politics in the EU. How directly you'll be affected by it.

And the even more frustrating part is, if the vote turns out to be remain, nobody will see the "proof" of what could go wrong when you exit. The doomsayers will continue bitching about the doom that will hit us "next year surely" and the remainers will be attacked, because for all the evidence they have, the only way to prove them right beyond any doubt is to actually crash and burn the plane they're flying on.

[Deleted]

Yes, it was not an entity. An idea seldom is. You are missing the point.
I'm not speaking about the entities. I'm using the concept to denote the cultural and linguistical regions, as was the only use of "Germany" before Napoleon and later Prussia appropriated the name.

If you lok at the word in German put the stress on the first part, not on the last to get the meaning I was using in my post.
The latter meaning is irrelevant during that timeframe anyway (as you well know).

I'm sorry but if this is your point, that doesn't really stand up.

While the french were a bit more "standardised" the differences were quite discernible, to the point where the South and the Low/High Lorraine had basically their own language.

German side this was worse, with the danish controlled zone clashing against the austrians, both culturally and politically.

We only started having "language" borders with a drive toward alphabetization, and that didn't come before the napoleonic reforms.

[vbnm247]

They're really not. What you said is something I'd expect from some construction worker not understanding anything about economics. To him it may seem like magic, GDP is just a silly acronym and who cares about a national budget anyway when all you worry about is how much your dental next week costs? To HIM it may seem like guessing. But for academics that actually know their stuff, it's quite frustrating that nobody can see these relations between economics and politics in the EU. How directly you'll be affected by it.

And the even more frustrating part is, if the vote turns out to be remain, nobody will see the "proof" of what could go wrong when you exit. The doomsayers will continue bitching about the doom that will hit us "next year surely" and the remainers will be attacked, because for all the evidence they have, the only way to prove them right beyond any doubt is to actually crash and burn the plane they're flying on.

Similar rhetoric to when the UK were debating to join the Euro. It would be a disaster if we didn't join etc.

[Slant]

Similar rhetoric to when the UK were debating to join the Euro. It would be a disaster if we didn't join etc.

Not really, see the status quo was different then.

[Nigel Tufnel]

So how about you get your self-righteous "who owes us" attitude and think of the bigger picture here for a second?

And in this instance, the bigger picture - the prevalence of Euroscepticism across the EU rather than solely being a UK issue - was exactly what I was drawing attention to. And you completely failed to acknowledge or comment on the question or data I presented. You just went straight in quoting a side comment re. austerity in the EU vs economic stimulus in the US. Then drew your debate back to broader points (Syria being a US-made problem?!), which I just don't have the time to debate now.

Have a go at dealing with e.g., French Euroscepticism, please, and how this will almost certainly derail further integration regardless of a UK Remain vote.

And, in actual fact, the vast majority of self-righteousness in this thread has emanated from the pro-EU, 'we're in it all together', 'I love olive oil' lobby. It isn't being self-righteous to question a) whether further integration is wanted (at a UK or European-wide level) or b) whether the existing EU is working well.

[dribbles]

Also for those that still have eyes too tainted by their own racist or xenophobic views:

read this and diggest it:
https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06...eo-goes-viral/


watch this slowly https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/

Vested interest bullshit. His life is the EU, all his work, whole raison d'être is the EU. Hardly going to diss the teet he has sucked on for twenty years and hopefully suck on for the next 20. Without people like him this mess wouldn't exist.

[Noradin]

Not sure which parts of which word you mean...

The last one I discussed and put in quotes: "Germany"/"Deutschland". The concept we discussed in the last few posts.
The stress should be on "deutsch" as in "of the people (who speak german)" not on "Land". Also note that "Land" needs not mean "state".

- - - Updated - - -

Saying France only became a unified country after the French Revolution is really narrowing down the definition of country to a degree that makes discussion neigh impossible. You don't need a proper constitution with civil rights to be a country in historical context.

And again, there is no reason to bring states into this discussion at all, when it was about the concepts of "France" and "Germany" as cultural and linguistic regions.

[Slant]

And in this instance, the bigger picture - the prevalence of Euroscepticism across the EU rather than solely being a UK issue - was exactly what I was drawing attention to. And you completely failed to acknowledge or comment on the question or data I presented. You just went straight in quoting a side comment re. austerity in the EU vs economic stimulus in the US. Then drew your debate back to broader points (Syria being a US-made problem?!), which I just don't have the time to debate now.

Have a go at dealing with e.g., French Euroscepticism, please, and how this will almost certainly derail further integration regardless of a UK Remain vote.

And, in actual fact, the vast majority of self-righteousness in this thread has emanated from the pro-EU, 'we're in it all together', 'I love olive oil' lobby. It isn't being self-righteous to question a) whether further integration is wanted (at a UK or European-wide level) or b) whether the existing EU is working well.

I actually addressed the point of Euroscepticism, when I acknowledged that it needs to be addressed by properly educating the public about it. Next time read my post. As for ignoring parts of yours, if you lose your credibility with bullshit claims, I don't usually bother to dive into every little tidbit just to find the one gem of knowledge that I can get behind. Especially not if you dump some data for me to read but don't have the time to actually debate shit. I could dump you a whole library of stuff and call it a day, but that's not what a forum is for.

[psyquest]

Vested interest bullshit. His life is the EU, all his work, whole raison d'être is the EU. Hardly going to diss the teet he has sucked on for twenty years and hopefully suck on for the next 20. Without people like him this mess wouldn't exist.

Is THAT your argument? Really?

[ati87]

Btw can scotland has his own referendum that says ''we want to stay within the EU''?Somebody linked a poling numbers that suggested it's only the English that want to leave, Scottish want to stay.

They may not be independent but it would give a clear sign to London, and majority may rules in a democratic state but then again it's not a good thing when the voice of a minority is completely ignored.

[Slant]

Is THAT your argument? Really?

Yep. That is all he ever says.

[Graeham]

Btw can scotland has his own referendum that says ''we want to stay within the EU''?Somebody linked a poling numbers that suggested it's only the English that want to leave, Scottish want to stay.

A large part of that is likely due to the simple fact that Scotland isn't as negatively affected by immigration when compared to England. There's still bad areas, of course, but there's a pretty noticeable difference whilst walking around the likes of Edinburgh and Glasgow compared to the likes of London, Bradford and Birmingham.

[Deleted]

This has been a constant feature of this thread: non-UK Europhiles criticising Euroscepticism in the UK while failing to acknowledge levels of Euroscepticism across the EU.

We do not criticize euro skepticism, we criticize the untenable, ignorant, inconsistent positions you hold.

Look at the actual views of a sample of the French public (Table 21, from the same report quoted above):

The french state wants it, its not the same thing as the french public's wishes.

Leave the EU - 24% :: Stay in the EU and try to reduce the EU's powers - 23% :: Leave things as they are - 8% :: Stay in the EU and try to increase the EU's powers - 16% :: Work for formation of a single European government - 14% :: Don't know - 16%

Exactly who is it in France that wants this supranational state? 14% of their population?

The french bureaucracy wants it, they wanted it since the 1950's -

In the meantime the Eurozone will continue to lurch from crisis to crisis; the ailing economies of the southern member states being propped up more and more reluctantly by the northern states. How much goodwill do the Germans actually possess?

once again, what the population in the pigs countries want, is rather moot - they want Germany's money, and with that comes strings.
and as has been tested, reality wins over the wishes of the people, see Greece.

There are levels of nearly 50% youth unemployment in both Greece and Spain. My God, what a spectacular endorsement of the EU that is. It's so desperately sad.

that has nothing to do with the EU - It has to do with their post debt boom situation.

Whilst in the US:

"The United States engineered a faster and more vigorous recovery from the Great Recession via a burst of government spending and tax cuts, combined with aggressive central bank action. By late 2011, less than four years after the downturn began, G.D.P. was back to its precrisis level, reaching $15 trillion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/30/bu...conomy-q1.html

The stagnation in Europe is set to continue because there lacks consenus for the further integration that is needed. Even if the UK votes Remain, the debate will continue and the EU will continue to stagnate.

two things, the US recovery is not economically sound, and more importantly, The UK is against the further integration the Eurozone is working on - because it doesn't like that.
Of course, the UK's wishes here are moot, the Eurozone will integrate further, regardless of what sweden and the UK wants.

[dribbles]

Somebody linked a poling numbers that suggested it's only the English that want to leave

Nah the French, Dutch, Italians, Danes, Swedes and many more all want to leave, just the Germans won't let them have a referendum.

http://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/a...e-2642839.html

[Deleted]

Similar rhetoric to when the UK were debating to join the Euro. It would be a disaster if we didn't join etc.

absent magic, we will never know if the UK would have been better of inside the Euro.

[ati87]

A large part of that is likely due to the simple fact that Scotland isn't as negatively affected by immigration when compared to England. There's still bad areas, of course, but there's a pretty noticeable difference whilst walking around the likes of Edinburgh and Glasgow compared to the likes of London, Bradford and Birmingham.

At no point did I even bring up the subject of immigration but asked if it was possible for the Scottish people to reject the UK referendum because of the possibility the end result doesn't represent their general view.

Their could be a dozen reasons on why people in Scotland feel different then from England, all of that is totally irrelevant to my question. So stop with this go to argument that is more about racism then having a honest discussion.

[Graeham]

Nah the French, Dutch, Italians, Danes, Swedes and many more all want to leave, just the Germans won't let them have a referendum.

The mainstream media and many politicians falsely attribute wanting to leave the EU as being 'Far Right', 'bigoted' or 'racist'. As a result a lot of people keep quiet about their views and don't speak of them openly - but at this point it cannot be denied that there's a prominent number of people from all walks of life who would prefer to see their country distance itself from the EU's increasingly tight grip.