[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Jotaux]

Think of all the lives that could have been saved if Sansa had told Jon about the army and they had waited an hour for them to arrive.

[Sooba]

Rob never fought 1v1, all his battles are ambushes so yeah

- - - Updated - - -

why everyone think Jon is prince that was promised? if all bastards from Targaryens are true, Tirion has right to throne since he is son of a King

1) Bastard Targaryens have never ruled. Civil wars were fought over it.
2) Even if they did, Jon has greater claim, since primogeniture means the right passes through Rhaegar to him. Tyrion is later in the succession.

- - - Updated - - -

If he zig-zagged, he wouldn't have been able to cover as much ground meaning that Jon would've had to get even closer to the opposing army and further from his men. And keep in mind that Jon was barely saved by his own troops.

Rickon was dead either way. Ramsey killed him while he was still in range of his archers. Had he zig-zagged, one archer volley would've dropped him regardless. So in the end, given Jon's rash actions, it was better that he ran straight.

Jon wouldn't have had to run after him at all if he was zig-zagging, since he would never have been in any real danger of getting hit from a single arrow. He would've been dead from one volley regardless, so that's a moot point.

[lakisa]

i don't like Sansa's character but you can say she and littlefinger wanted Bolton army out of winterfell fully committed so they can't retreat when forces of vale came. they couldn't win siege with 8k defenders behind winterfell's walls

[Sooba]

Rickon was clearly extraneous at this point - no one has any attachment to him, he's too young to be of use. His presence was actually a problem for the plot going forward as a trueborn Stark. Bran's not going to inherit Winterfell he's going to be busy three eyed ravening. Leaves the door open for Jon.

What makes you think Jon's going to have anything to do with Winterfell? Assuming he even survives he's kind've a Targaryen...

As for the person you're responding to, Rickon's death here is largely D&D's writing at this point.

[caervek]

they couldn't win siege with 8k defenders behind winterfell's walls

Sansa and Jon should know the secret passages in/out of winterfell (though Theon may have told Ramsey about them).

[Sooba]

I don't think a single large dog is really a suitable figure to have on a field of battle like that. He'd just be one big unarmored target without any battle sense.

I feel like the only "realism" question about that battle was why Wun didn't have a large tree trunk or something for a weapon. The entire Bolton army goes down in a flash - spear wall included - if he just has some appropriately sized weapon.

Yup. Book Giants use massive hammers. Pretty evident he had to not be armed with one for plot contrivance reasons. Sauron and his mace springs to mind.

[caervek]

Not every single episode can be the Red Wedding, Hardhome, or BotB. Not only that, but if D&D were as good at writing as GRRM, then they'd both have fucking NYT bestsellers themgodsdamnedselves.

I agree with what you're saying, but just a point: GRRM isn't writing GoT (TV) anymore, just advising important plot points, this makes a big difference. I.E when GRRM was writing we saw one of the biggest badasses on the show killed by an infected cut, but now HBO are writing we see a little girl fatally stabbed in the abdomen and instead of bleeding out in minutes she sleeps it off.

[Sooba]

One thing I always wondered about the R+L=J thing was the fact that Jon has black hair. If I remember right wasn't it that ALL Targaryens had white/blonde hair? If that's true wouldn't Raegar have blonde hair? With that said Lyanna was a Stark and the Starks had mostly brown hair. So if Raegar and Lyanna got it on and had little baby Jon wouldn't his hair be brown or blonde? But it isn't, his hair is black like I said so going with that theory it would mean that Raegar then must've had black hair but like I said with the Targaryens all their hair was blonde. So this is what confuses me on this theory. I wanted to believe in this theory when I first of heard of it but after thinking about this it's becoming less likely to be true.

Could there be a possibility that Jon is another bastard son of King Robert?

Simply, no. For multiple reasons. No the Targaryens don't always have platinum hair. Targ-Targ children do, but certainly not those born outside that paradigm. Bittersteel's was brown. The Dayne's are often brown. etc etc.

Lyanna never had an actual sexual relationship with Rob. Even if she did, she was nowhere near Rob for the 9 months preceding Jon's birth. Rhaegar on the other hand was there.

Overall you just seem confused.

[caervek]

The only one who showed any modicum of common sense was Ramsey Bolton when he refused the duel.

And when he shot a stationary giant in the face with a bow, if Jon had thought to do that he wouldn't have lost a dozen watchmen inc a close friend.

[Sooba]

I think two blonde-haired parents can actually have a brown-haired baby:

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask343

Possible due to the nature of incomplete dominance and genetic interactions. But rare. In the case of the very pale Targaryens, would be unbelievably exceedingly rare.

- - - Updated - - -

And when he shot a stationary giant in the face with a bow, if Jon had thought to do that he wouldn't have lost a dozen watchmen inc a close friend.

Actually that didn't make sense. The giant was already incapacitated and Jon had his back turned. Ramsay should've shot him.

- - - Updated - - -

The implication is that he is not a bastard.

Doesn't matter. The succession is reckoned through Rhaegar. Jon before Tyrion.

- - - Updated - - -

You mean Dany and her brother Jon. They're going to be a force to reckoned with.

Nephew. :P

- - - Updated - - -

Just realized this when reading the TV tropes recap of last night's episode:

His grip on power is paper thin, though.

[Frontenac]

Could be, but I think it highly doubtful the books will play out the way the show does - there's just way too many inconsistencies between the two at this point.

The Knights of the Vale showing up was still completely stupid for two reasons. First, it doesn't really seem that very much time has passed since Sansa wrote to ask Littlefinger for help.

We cannot know how much time has passed. It could be longer than you are thinking, maybe weeks or months.

Mobilizing such a large force as they were made out to be and moving them from the Vale to Winterfell takes quite a bit of time. Checking the interactive map shows that it's almost 1500 miles from the Eyrie to Winterfell by land.
Your average medieval army could move something between 5-10 miles per day. Assuming that this was a fully mounted army on a death march that still somehow managed to keep itself well supplied means that if they were 100% ready to go when they got the call for help, they'd still have to do 2 months of uninterrupted marching.

We know since episode 5 that Petyr Baelish and the Knights of the Vale have taken Moat Cailin and are stationned there. It would take them much less time to ride to Winterfell.

Second, the first book states how easily you can oversee the surrounding landscape from the towers of Winterfell when they see Robert and his entourage coming. They should have seen the oncoming army of mounted knights at full marching speed hours before they got there. Even assuming that Ramsey was super rash and just feels that he MUST face his enemy in the field while having no battle experience, he still would've had generals and officers who'd post sentries and send out scouts to make sure they'd not be flanked and to survey the battlefield. The knights of the Vale couldn't possibly have surprised him.

Granted. Although we must remember that this is a feudal army and that he has not mobilized the whole North for war. Castles were not always fully manned. Most "knights" (I know the North has very few true knights) had lands of their own that they had to take care of, so they were not always in their lord's castle. It would have been costy to feed all these men... Ramsey only got the Umbers and Karstarks with him (and his own forces). For him, it was just a short skirmish. He had no reason to believe the Vale would attack. He thought the entire force of his enemies, inferior to his own and poorly armed, was before him. So no reason to divert men to watch his back. He got cocky, and we know that it's his style. Remember the discussion he had with his father, who wanted to wait for Stannis behind the walls of Winterfell?

What puzzles me more is why wasn't he informed of the presence of the Vale's army in Moat Cailin? It looks like LF got the passive collaboration of some lords in the vicinity...

And Jon has been the commander at castle black and has seen battle before. He knows he's responsible for his army. While it wouldn't have looked so heroic on TV, the smart thing to do if he HAD to try and save his dumb brother would be to send a squad of less important people to ride ahead and get him. Just say "You three, go get him now!"
As the commander, he is literally the most important person in that army. He should've known that Ramsey would probably try and do some shit to Rickon to provoke him into an illogical response.

Jon has always been the kind of leader to get his hands dirty. He's no Tywin Lannister, who (wisely) was always leading his troops behind the lines. It was not out of character for Jon to take matters in his own hands. Ramsey knew that. Jon offered a duel between them to save the lives of his men.

And the night before the battle?

Sansa: "You don't have the numbers, you really can't win this battle."
Jon: "I don't care about that, this show now operates on anime logic and shit will work out fine because I'm the good guy and I'm really determined!"
Sansa: "Dude, you're not making sense. He has superior numbers and a castle!"
Jon: "But that's MY castle and I believe in the heart of the cards!!!11111"

I know I'm way overthinking some of these things, but if the showrunners won't, who else will?

Sansa's objection was not only based on numbers, but in the fact that Jon does not know Ramsey. And she's right. Jon was right that with the appropriate tactics, a smaller army can defeat a greater one. He did it himself in Castle Black. He had a defensive strategy that could have crippled Ramsey's army if it attacked. The chance were not very high, but it could have worked. He underestimated Ramsey's skill at playing with people's emotion though, and he turned his defense into an offense. In the open, his army got flanked and surrounded.

[Sooba]

Well, it is a good thing he's half stark and all of them have very dark hair then.

That was part of my point. But again, no, not all. See Brynden Rivers.

Edit: I'm an idiot. Half Stark not Half Targ. Yes, I agree.

[ro9ue]

Great episode, and overall solid season.

I definitely agree that Dany is getting a bit annoying, but it's still not a bad story arc. The one cringe-worthy moment for me was when she got on her dragon in front of the Dothraki and gave that speech. Other than that, I don't think it's nearly as bad as the arm chair TV show writers in this thread proclaim.

Things I want to see in the Season Finale:

• Jon's parents revealed by Bran. I think we all pretty much know where the story is going, so they should just give us the payoff so we can move on.
• Davos' interaction with Meli
• Dany sailing to Westeros
• Cersei realizing there are way bigger problems for her house than the little political battles of King's Landing (walkers, Dany + Dragons, Jon, etc)

I smiled because all I could think of was the Scarlet Monastery challenge runs and the Houndmaster Boss

SAME! haha

A Song of Ice and Fire

That's so fucking cool.


I have to wonder if really Jon and Dany are going to be true embodiments of "Fire" and "Ice". We've seen Dany really earn the Fire part. And Jon has at times been mostly combating Ice. Against the White Walkers, the cold in the north, etc.

I wonder if him essentially being a zombie will lead to him becoming the Night King? Or at least zombies wouldn't attack him like a regular living human with warm blood?

Starks might actually essentially become the Forsaken (if you play WoW). Coldhands, Jon.... Lady Stoneheart.

[Frontenac]

Think of all the lives that could have been saved if Sansa had told Jon about the army and they had waited an hour for them to arrive.

I don't remember that we saw her receiving an answer from Littlefinger. The way she acted about their numbers shows that she wasn't sure if the Vale would show up.

[ro9ue]

I was smiling... but I was also sorta sad. He's a great actor and the character was intriguing and shocking to watch. The guy you love to hate.

I was sad.

[Deleted]

I don't remember that we saw her receiving an answer from Littlefinger. The way she acted about their numbers shows that she wasn't sure if the Vale would show up.

In any case if people think LF would have come before the start of the battle they are clearly insane and don't know LF. His aim is to have Sansa owe him one that's true, but also having the two last armies in the North destroy each other. He would have come late to the battle regardless, just in time to help Jon, but late enough to have very few men standing.

[ro9ue]

I don't remember that we saw her receiving an answer from Littlefinger. The way she acted about their numbers shows that she wasn't sure if the Vale would show up.

Would it have been so difficult to say, "I wrote to the Vale and they fucking owe me big time(not to mention Littlefinger wants me),"? Jon was under the impression there was no possibility of them getting more troops.

Yeah.

On one hand, was she THAT egotistical that she would let all those men die just to prove a point to Jon? Or did she really not know and LF just happened to arrive at her camp mid battle. I'd like to think it was the latter. I know Sansa isn't as "good" as she used to be in earlier seasons, but I highly doubt she would let her army with her brothers' lives on the line go into battle if she knew for sure they were coming.

[Frontenac]

Would it have been so difficult to say, "I wrote to the Vale and they fucking owe me big time(not to mention Littlefinger wants me),"? Jon was under the impression there was no possibility of them getting more troops.

You don't mount a strategy on that kind of info on the eve of a battle. She could have told Jon well before that the Vale could be an ally, yes. But my answer was about "waiting an hour for the Vale to arrive."

[Cannibalus]

He's not portrayed as a decent commander, no decent commander would take his entire army outside of a castle for such a small army. He was an idiot, and it's why he died.

Let's not forget that he sent his cavalry first and then rained arrows on both his cavalry and the enemy... what a retarded fuck. There are points where being a sadist really doesnt help you.

[Sooba]

I don't remember that we saw her receiving an answer from Littlefinger. The way she acted about their numbers shows that she wasn't sure if the Vale would show up.

Given the fact that LF had already offered her his assistance and had gone to the trouble of mobilizing and marching his troops all the way to Moat Cailin (a fact that she already knew), she could be relatively certain they'd show up. The question would have simply been when.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think she had gotten a response from the Vale, but she could have still told Jon(the commander of her forces, from a certain PoV) who all she was asking for help from. It's possible she did off screen and we just don't know about it, but it certainly seems like they were playing that as a secret she was keeping.

She did show up at the head of their army, after all.

I'm not saying she should have told him the night before the fight. She should have told him before they even met Ramsey to set up the battle. Then they could have waited another week to get a response, if necessary.

Precisely. While we can blame Jon, he wasn't playing the game with all the information available to him. She could have told him the moment she sent the letter.