BREXIT - leave or remain?

[ati87]

Nah the French, Dutch, Italians, Danes, Swedes and many more all want to leave, just the Germans won't let them have a referendum.

http://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/a...e-2642839.html

Our (Dutch) government will never hold a referendum because our government isn't ruled by a single party.

If we had the Neo Nazi group (PVV) as a single party ruler then we would leave the EU without a referendum (probably) but since the Dutch election system semi prevents having a single party ruler it's highly unlikely that the PVV will find a friend that will go along with them.

Which is fine since the government needs to represent everybody (and that includes bloody immigrants and minorities), and not just the group that just want to see the world burn.

[dribbles]

Our (Dutch) government will never hold a referendum

Oh dear what a sorry state, so you have kind of been conquered by Brussels/Merkel without hope of respite. Must be depressing, more weed I guess.

[Bollocks]

Then prepare to be triggered for the rest of your life. History is littered with bad economics and will continue to be littered with bad economics going forward.

At the end of the day all economists for both leave and remain are guessing and estimating.

What you are essentially saying is: Because the medic was wrong once,medicine is unreliable l, the same with meteorology.

[Noradin]

Oh dear what a sorry state, so you have kind of been conquered by Brussels/Merkel without hope of respite. Must be depressing, more weed I guess.

Good job cherry picking words out of that post so you could attempt an attack on it!
Mind not quoting parts of sentences out of context?

[ati87]

The mainstream media and many politicians falsely attribute wanting to leave the EU as being 'Far Right', 'bigoted' or 'racist'. As a result a lot of people keep quiet about their views and don't speak of them openly - but at this point it cannot be denied that there's a prominent number of people from all walks of life who would prefer to see their country distance itself from the EU's increasingly tight grip.

What's not racist about using made up facts in regards to immigration and minorities?

A go to argument against minorities has been (but not limited to) ''stealing women or raping women'', it's been used by Nazi's to justify their actions towards different groups (including jews).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jud_S%...9F_(1940_film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Et...ew_(1940_film)

these two movies are maybe the best examples of Nazi tactics, both of these movies you will find theme's that you see today when people talk about immigration. Oh they rape our women (or steal) or they are savages and deserve XYXZ both of which you see back in this 2 movies. I;m not even bothering showing the comparison of some of the posters the anti immigration crowd has been using that are almost identical to Nazi propaganda.

So yes most people are racist when they are talking about immigration and minorities, their is no difference between the fraction of the truth the Nazi's used or the fraction of the truths today's right wingers use.

The whole immigration argument of this debate has been destroyed so hard that at this point it's just ignoring the facts and living inside your own bubble.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh dear what a sorry state, so you have kind of been conquered by Brussels/Merkel without hope of respite. Must be depressing, more weed I guess.

At least I'm not living in constant fear of Muslims, Germans, east-Europeans and everything else.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I actually addressed the point of Euroscepticism, when I acknowledged that it needs to be addressed by properly educating the public about it. Next time read my post.

Ahh yes, fair enough. You did write:

The problem is more in a lack of education about the EU (as the Brexit shows) and how it works

The problem is that your definition of "education" is much akin to opening a walnut with a sledgehammer. In other words "if you are not a left-leaning Europhile and do not agree with everything left-leaning Europhiles have to say on the matter then you are completely wrong about everything" - lol.

As for ignoring parts of yours, if you lose your credibility with bullshit claims, I don't usually bother to dive into every little tidbit just to find the one gem of knowledge that I can get behind. Especially not if you dump some data for me to read but don't have the time to actually debate shit. I could dump you a whole library of stuff and call it a day, but that's not what a forum is for.

But I didn't ask you to read it! I was just sourcing the statistics I quoted.

I wrote:

Look at the actual views of a sample of the French public (Table 21, from the same report quoted above):

Leave the EU - 24% :: Stay in the EU and try to reduce the EU's powers - 23% :: Leave things as they are - 8% :: Stay in the EU and try to increase the EU's powers - 16% :: Work for formation of a single European government - 14% :: Don't know - 16%

Exactly who is it in France that wants this supranational state? 14% of their population?

Never going to happen.

You wrote:

you lose your credibility with bullshit claims

lol - ok. Not sure really how to move forward from there. I present data, pose a question, and you dismiss it as a "bullshit claim".

Good luck with this "education" of yours. It has Soviet overtones to it.

Back to the original point I was making: this issue will not go away for the EU. And while people like Slant think that "education" will solve the EU's woes (good luck with 'educating' the Greeks whom you are busily shafting so hard, crap is coming out of their mouths), this is not a battle he is likely to win.

Or you just role with:

The french state wants it, its not the same thing as the french public's wishes.

once again, what the population in the pigs countries want, is rather moot - they want Germany's money, and with that comes strings.
and as has been tested, reality wins over the wishes of the people, see Greece.

And the left-leaning Europhiles impose their views on the electorate. Thereby completing invalidating any sort of notion that the EU is in fact a democratic institution. Thank you GoblinP for actually answering my question and pointing this out.

[Shadowmelded]

Btw can scotland has his own referendum that says ''we want to stay within the EU''?Somebody linked a poling numbers that suggested it's only the English that want to leave, Scottish want to stay.

They may not be independent but it would give a clear sign to London, and majority may rules in a democratic state but then again it's not a good thing when the voice of a minority is completely ignored.

Well the SNP (Scottish National Party, currently in power in the Scottish Government) won the recent elections (held in May) on a platform that mentioned being dragged out of Europe against our will as 'material change' that could justify a second referendum. The latest polling I'd seen on Scotland's EU referendum vote was 64% Remain, 36% Leave and in the same poll they asked about Independence in the event of Brexit, 47% said there should be a second Indy Ref, 45% said there shouldn't.

There was an interesting policy paper released by a think tank about the post-brexit situation. http://www.friendsofeurope.org/futur...ead-across-eu/

[Deleted]

Haven't had the time or inclination to keep up with this thread, but Corbyn has just stated there is no upper limit to immigration in a tone that is quite condescending (and bear in mind we are not America, England already has the highest population density in the EU, and thus has quite limited space which is why we live in Rabbit Hutches and pay buy houses at most other 1st world countries would baulk at....to live in the rain too). Weirdly, Americans are generally more anti-immigration than we are but have MUCH more space to house new immigrants, and in fact, in the Green Card lottery Britain is banned completely as a country. This would NEVER be allowed here, as it is "racist"....

Anyway, the latest story is that the idiot Beckham comes out with this :http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36584685. He lives in a mansion in Beverly hills, in the sun, and can in fact live wherever he wants. He doesn't need to compete on a "property ladder". He also has even less knowledge about politics than the average Brit, which is saying something. Finally. the fact that a "serious warning if we leave" from the Remain campaign was that house prices might fall by upto 20% makes me want to vote leave even more.

What the hell is wrong with this country? We want to screw the general populace over for whom?

If only we could control the NON-EU people staying here....

I was pro remain now I am on the fence again.

[ati87]

Well the SNP (Scottish National Party, currently in power in the Scottish Government) won the recent elections (held in May) on a platform that mentioned being dragged out of Europe against our will as 'material change' that could justify a second referendum. The latest polling I'd seen on Scotland's EU referendum vote was 64% Remain, 36% Leave and in the same poll they asked about Independence in the event of Brexit, 47% said there should be a second Indy Ref, 45% said there shouldn't.

There was an interesting policy paper released by a think tank about the post-brexit situation. http://www.friendsofeurope.org/futur...ead-across-eu/

This is a good answer, actually answers part of my questions of what Scotland options are.

This is a huge difference from somebody that has to attack immigrants whenever possible

- - - Updated - - -

Haven't had the time or inclination to keep up with this thread, but Corbyn has just stated there is no upper limit to immigration in a tone that is condescending (and bear in mind we are not America, England already has the highest population density in the EU, and thus have quite limited space) and then the idiot Beckham comes out with this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36584685. He lives in a mansion in Beverly hills, in the sun, and can in fact live wherever he wants. He also has even less knowledge about politics than the average Brit, which is saying something. Finally. the fact that a "serious warning if we leave" from the Remain campaign was that house prices might fall by upto 20% makes me want to vote leave even more.

What the hell is wrong with this country? We want to screw the general populace over for whom?

If only we could control the NON-EU people staying here....

I was pro remain now I am on the fence again.

No you aren't

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_a...pean_countries

England may be high but your not even close to number 1, ignoring those small nations that barley have any population England is number 3.

[Noradin]

and bear in mind we are not America, England already has the highest population density in the EU

Source? Because as far as I'm informed it hasn't.

[Deleted]

This is a good answer, actually answers part of my questions of what Scotland options are.

This is a huge difference from somebody that has to attack immigrants whenever possible

- - - Updated - - -



No you aren't

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_a...pean_countries

England may be high but your not even close to number 1, ignoring those small nations that barley have any population England is number 3.

England isn't even mentioned in that source, just the UK. Also that is Europe, not the EU. That is like me comparing a statement about America to America +Canada.


From the UK ONS ( Office of National Statistics) 2014: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...ion/index.html

In mid-2013 the population density of England was 413 people per sq km compared with 149 people per sq km in Wales and 135 people per sq km in Northern Ireland. Scotland has the lowest population density at 68 people per sq km.

Four Hundred....and thirteen people....per sq km....from a government source.....3 years ago....The cloest is the Netherlands with 393, but they have even less space than England.

Yet we want to import more, and young people are crying out about house prices. I am not young, but I am also crying out. It is utterly insane. Why do we hate ourselves so much to just keep importing more people? Is it purely to prop houseprices up for the super rich in London?

I have no clue.

[Whiskeyjack WN]

No you aren't

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_a...pean_countries

England may be high but your not even close to number 1, ignoring those small nations that barley have any population England is number 3.

Quoting wikipedia as a source is bad form.. your lecturers would not approve

using: http://statisticstimes.com/populatio...on-density.php

filter the ranking by continent, and you can see the European order by density.

If you choose to ignore Malta Monaco and those other very small countries you are left with Netherlands at no.1 with a density of 405.

That said, he did state England and not the UK. A quick google returns the population density of England to be 413 per sq km (in 2013).

Therefore he is right that England is has the highest population density in Europe. (provided you discount the small islands and countries).

On a note for the Scottish.. I don't understand how you see things, but what has changed from your independence vote compared to now?

Firstly you vote to remain part of the UK but now you want to leave because they might leave the EU. Do the benefits of the EU outweigh your benefits of being in the UK? Bearing in mind the fall in oil and you would need to contribute to the EU directly from your own coffers, where as now i believe the money sent to the EU is not taken out of your block budget you're given each year?

I do not live in Scotland nor pretend to know better than you, I'm just wondering what your thought pattern is on the matter.

[bloodkin]

I changed my mind, I want you guys to leave, I want to buy Forgeworld stuff on the cheap, I don't like recast stuff. Pls leave.

[Deleted]

Another little shocker:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...iness-35352853

Average house prices in Scotland stood at £195,000 ($287k) in November. That is a LOT of cash (we have much lower wages than the USA and pay higher taxes)

This compared with £302,000 ($444k) in England as an average, which is just obscene, especially when the average US wage is 1/3rd more than the average UK wage, with far less taxes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_average_wage

[vbnm247]

absent magic, we will never know if the UK would have been better of inside the Euro.

But we do know the outcome was nowhere near as catastrophic as what we were told it would be.

What you are essentially saying is: Because the medic was wrong once,medicine is unreliable l, the same with meteorology.

And just because the medic was right once, does not mean medicine is infallible.

Checkmate.

[caervek]

England already has the highest population density in the EU.

Actually it's the second highest, Malta has it higher.

[Deleted]

And the left-leaning Europhiles impose their views on the electorate. Thereby completing invalidating any sort of notion that the EU is in fact a democratic institution. Thank you GoblinP for actually answering my question and pointing this out.

Yeah no.
A, I'm Right wing.
B, the population are not capable of understanding most of the state - They may have opinions on foreign policy, but the vast majority of it are done by bureaucrats, If you asked the french population in 1950, I'm certain they would not like Germany, if you asked the policy professionals, they did say, that tying Germany and France together would prevent another war, and is thus the overarching goal of the french state, regardless of what the people may think.
C, how the french government is run has no relation to how the EU is run - because the EU is largely powerless - it is entirely run on the power the EU member nations have vested in it, which is not much.
D, as for Greece, if they want german money, they have to do what germany says, if they dont like that, they can go bankrupt and leave the EUro, something the population does not want.
- Its the population that is deluded (just like you are i might add) that the magical option of having the cake and eating it too is available - which it is not.

- - - Updated - - -

But we do know the outcome was nowhere near as catastrophic as what we were told it would be.

largely because the UK managed to protect their financial industry from harm of keeping the pound.
Like suing the EU in the ECJ to protect it from rules keeping euro denominated trades from being excluded from them - But that required a suit - in the evil ECJ none the less.

[Deleted]

Actually it's the second highest, Malta has it higher.

Fair point. I only considered places migrants actually want to move to. They seem to want to move on from places like Malta for some reason.

[Kallisto]

Yet we want to import more, and young people are crying out about house prices. I am not young, but I am also crying out. It is utterly insane. Why do we hate ourselves so much to just keep importing more people? Is it purely to prop houseprices up for the super rich in London?

I have no clue.

Because there is pleanty of land to be built on (Less than 10% of England is used for anything), plus builders waiting for projects. The issue immigration it's NIMBYs who need to just shut up or be ignored.

[Deleted]

Another little shocker:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...iness-35352853

Average house prices in Scotland stood at £195,000 ($287k) in November. That is a LOT of cash (we have much lower wages than the USA and pay higher taxes)

This compared with £302,000 ($444k) in England as an average, which is just obscene, especially when the average US wage is 1/3rd more than the average UK wage, with far less taxes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_average_wage

Not sure why you are comparing with other countries, especially the US of all places. If you had ever even visited either as a tourist, let alone know a single fact about economics, you'd know cannot compare prices blindly.

The US is huge. The whole of the UK could easily fit into California. The population density is much lower. The material use is utterly different, e.g. many houses in the US are built primarily of wood. Standards for houses, where and how you can build houses is utterly different. By contrast, in most of the UK new developments on unused or land is highly restricted. The housing supply is much lower, relative to much higher demand. Houses are made of bricks. And that's not even touching the barebones of other critical economic differences, which affect wages, access to credit, utterly different types of mortgage markets (can you even get Fixed mortgages in the UK?), etc. etc.