[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Frontenac]

In any case if people think LF would have come before the start of the battle they are clearly insane and don't know LF. His aim is to have Sansa owe him one that's true, but also having the two last armies in the North destroy each other. He would have come late to the battle regardless, just in time to help Jon, but late enough to have very few men standing.

Agree. The Starks owe LF and the Vale big time. They are still in a position of weakness. The North as a whole has never been weaker. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up with a wedding between Sansa and either LF or Robin. Both are possible. LF strikes me more as a puppetmaster than an open player of the game. Being a ruler is risky business these days, and there's just as much reward to be gained by influencing and controlling all these lords behind the curtain.

[Krawu]

We cannot know how much time has passed. It could be longer than you are thinking, maybe weeks or months.

We know since episode 5 that Petyr Baelish and the Knights of the Vale have taken Moat Cailin and are stationned there. It would take them much less time to ride to Winterfell.

OK, sure. Unlikely he'd have a full army of all mounted knights for open field battle stationed there, but I'll give the show the benefit of the doubt.

Granted. Although we must remember that this is a feudal army and that he has not mobilized the whole North for war. Castles were not always fully manned. Most "knights" (I know the North has very few true knights) had lands of their own that they had to take care of, so they were not always in their lord's castle. It would have been costy to feed all these men... Ramsey only got the Umbers and Karstarks with him (and his own forces). For him, it was just a short skirmish. He had no reason to believe the Vale would attack. He thought the entire force of his enemies, inferior to his own and poorly armed, was before him. So no reason to divert men to watch his back. He got cocky, and we know that it's his style. Remember the discussion he had with his father, who wanted to wait for Stannis behind the walls of Winterfell?

Castles may not have been fully manned at all times, but this is simply not true here, because Ramsey had that huge army stationed at Winterfell. And even if he was completely oblivious to how battles and strategy work, an army this large must have something like a command structure, with officers and commanders more seasoned than Ramsey himself. I'd say posting a few sentries and keeping Winterfell manned with at least a few guys would be absolutely mandatory in any army. And one of them had to have spotted an encroaching mounted force of that size and sent word hours before they arrived. The claim that they did not have a single dude on lookout duty is completely unbelievable to me.

What puzzles me more is why wasn't he informed of the presence of the Vale's army in Moat Cailin? It looks like LF got the passive collaboration of some lords in the vicinity...

And that too. Any nearby-stationed army that's just attacked and taken a stronghold previously held by my forces would worry me, and I'd have a lookout posted for that reason alone.

Jon has always been the kind of leader to get his hands dirty. He's no Tywin Lannister, who (wisely) was always leading his troops behind the lines. It was not out of character for Jon to take matters in his own hands. Ramsey knew that. Jon offered a duel between them to save the lives of his men.

Jon didn't offer the duel to save the lives of his men, since he didn't expect Ramsey to accept to begin with. He said so himself. He thought he was provoking him with that somehow, which struck me as an even dumber explanation. Jon may be a hands-on leader, but he's also fiercely responsible. And abandoning the army you're in charge of to try and save someone who's so obviously being used as bait is the most irresponsible thing I've seen on the show yet.

Also when it was claimed what a great swordsman Jon was - where exactly did that come from? It wasn't said or shown anywhere before as I recall.

Sansa's objection was not only based on numbers, but in the fact that Jon does not know Ramsey. And she's right. Jon was right that with the appropriate tactics, a smaller army can defeat a greater one. He did it himself in Castle Black. He had a defensive strategy that could have crippled Ramsey's army if it attacked. The chance were not very high, but it could have worked. He underestimated Ramsey's skill at playing with people's emotion though, and he turned his defense into an offense. In the open, his army got flanked and surrounded.

Sansa didn't know how Ramsey leads an army either. The only useful thing she said was that Jon wasn't getting Rickon back, and he should have listened.

A smaller army may (!) be able to defeat a larger one, but not without better equipment, avid preparation or terrain advantage, none of which that ragtag band of the Starks had and all of which his forces at Castle Black had.
Was was Jons defensive strategy? He briefly suggested digging trenches against the cavalry, but you don't dig trenches deep enough to stop cavalry in a few hours at night before a major battle.

[Lime]

Jon wouldn't have had to run after him at all if he was zig-zagging, since he would never have been in any real danger of getting hit from a single arrow. He would've been dead from one volley regardless, so that's a moot point.

How is that a moot point?

Jon ran out there to get him before he got killed. Because he was running straight, he covered more ground, which means more distance from Ramsay's cavalry. Had he zig-zagged, he would've covered less ground before Jon would get to him, putting Jon even closer to the cavalry. Rickon was dead regardless. If Ramsay felt like he wouldn't have been able to land the shot, he would've ordered a volley.

Jon was not some stationary target, he was moving closer to Rickon. Again, the more time Rickon wastes, the closer Jon gets to the enemy.

The goal was to put Jon in danger and force his troops to abandon their position to save him. And even with all the ground Rickon covered by running straight, they barely (as in a matter of 1-3 seconds) got to him in time. Nobody would've survived a line of cavalry on foot without some sort of backup.

Rickon running straight got himself killed (again, he wasn't going to live this regardless), but saved Jon a pointless death.

[Jotaux]

Doesn't matter. The succession is reckoned through Rhaegar. Jon before Tyrion.

Doesn't matter. Unless hes legitimized Jon has no rights. Danny would be ahead of both.

[Frontenac]

Given the fact that LF had already offered her his assistance and had gone to the trouble of mobilizing and marching his troops all the way to Moat Cailin (a fact that she already knew), she could be relatively certain they'd show up. The question would have simply been when.

- - - Updated - - -


She did show up at the head of their army, after all.




Precisely. While we can blame Jon, he wasn't playing the game with all the information available to him. She could have told him the moment she sent the letter.

The question of when is the problem. Yes, it was highly probable that LF would show up, but she didn't know for sure. I already admitted that she could have told Jon well before about the letter. I don't think it would have changed much things though. Maintaining an army, supplying it with food is hard enough. Winter is near. They couldn't afford to wait very long, just in case the Vale would show up. LF should have sent an answer. But we know it's not his game... Arriving late works at his advantage, as ArgonaZe pointed out.

As for Sansa being with LF, it seemed to me that they appeared behind Jon's line. It looks like Sansa met LF in her base camp. Sansa told him the battle had begun, so they flew to the rescue. If Sansa knew that Baelish was coming, she would have been much more confident on the eve of the battle.

[Gallahadd]

I was smiling... but I was also sorta sad. He's a great actor and the character was intriguing and shocking to watch. The guy you love to hate.

Indeed. He was a horrible, unforgivable, reprehensible character.

By fuck he was brilliant at it. I hated him with a burning passion, but I loved every second he was on the screen, because he was so very very good at being bad.

It also helps that Iwan Rheon is an outstanding actor, can't wait to see what he does next.

[Deleted]

Could be, but I think it highly doubtful the books will play out the way the show does - there's just way too many inconsistencies between the two at this point.

The Knights of the Vale showing up was still completely stupid for two reasons. First, it doesn't really seem that very much time has passed since Sansa wrote to ask Littlefinger for help. Mobilizing such a large force as they were made out to be and moving them from the Vale to Winterfell takes quite a bit of time. Checking the interactive map shows that it's almost 1500 miles from the Eyrie to Winterfell by land.
Your average medieval army could move something between 5-10 miles per day. Assuming that this was a fully mounted army on a death march that still somehow managed to keep itself well supplied means that if they were 100% ready to go when they got the call for help, they'd still have to do 2 months of uninterrupted marching.

Second, the first book states how easily you can oversee the surrounding landscape from the towers of Winterfell when they see Robert and his entourage coming. They should have seen the oncoming army of mounted knights at full marching speed hours before they got there. Even assuming that Ramsey was super rash and just feels that he MUST face his enemy in the field while having no battle experience, he still would've had generals and officers who'd post sentries and send out scouts to make sure they'd not be flanked and to survey the battlefield. The knights of the Vale couldn't possibly have surprised him.

And Jon has been the commander at castle black and has seen battle before. He knows he's responsible for his army. While it wouldn't have looked so heroic on TV, the smart thing to do if he HAD to try and save his dumb brother would be to send a squad of less important people to ride ahead and get him. Just say "You three, go get him now!"
As the commander, he is literally the most important person in that army. He should've known that Ramsey would probably try and do some shit to Rickon to provoke him into an illogical response.

And the night before the battle?

Sansa: "You don't have the numbers, you really can't win this battle."
Jon: "I don't care about that, this show now operates on anime logic and shit will work out fine because I'm the good guy and I'm really determined!"
Sansa: "Dude, you're not making sense. He has superior numbers and a castle!"
Jon: "But that's MY castle and I believe in the heart of the cards!!!11111"

I know I'm way overthinking some of these things, but if the showrunners won't, who else will?

The only way to justify Peter's timely appearane is to assume he rallied the knights of the Vale regardless of Sansa's refusal. Sentries might not have seen the Vale's cavalry due to winter mists and overal dark winter days. It's thin and full of assumption, but it could be the reasoning behind the scene's writing. Not that I think the show's writers ever actually considered it, being the dimwits they are.

Jon led fighters beyond the wall in rangings, versus Whites and the Free Folk. Never against an organised army. Running towards Rickon, wasn't nearly as stupid as running towards Bolton's cavalry - that even seemed stupid for Jon.

Obviously, the book will be completely different, with Stannis having beaten the largest part of Bolton's army.

This episode was entertaining at least, unlike the 3 yawn inducing ones before it.

[ro9ue]

Shout out to imgur for this:

[Los Tiffin]

I don't understand what are you people mad angry about? Because statistics did not work as it should have? What should have happened, death of Starks, on the other side victory of Lannisters over those religious fanatics. South is ruled by Lannisters, north by Boltons. After some times WW's comes down from the north killing everything while Dany incinerates from the south. Maybe some epic clash at the end and that's it? Relax, it's a show based on books, it's a fiction. Sit back and enjoy, if you don't like it don't watch it or accept it as it is.

[Deleted]

I don't understand what are you people mad angry about? Because statistics did not work as it should have? What should have happened, death of Starks, on the other side victory of Lannisters over those religious fanatics. South is ruled by Lannisters, north by Boltons. After some times WW's comes down from the north killing everything while Dany incinerates from the south. Maybe some epic clash at the end and that's it? Relax, it's a show based on books, it's a fiction. Sit back and enjoy, if you don't like it don't watch it or accept it as it is.

Without quotes, it's impossible to gather who or what you're replying to exactly.

[Los Tiffin]

To everyone that expects from a tv show to be realistic.

[Thrif]

Jon: "I don't care about that, this show now operates on anime logic and shit will work out fine because I'm the good guy and I'm really determined!"

Sadly, a pretty accurate depiction of the state of the show.

And funny.

- - - Updated - - -

To everyone that expects from a tv show to be realistic.

You mean what this show became famous for during the first three seasons?

[Tempguy]

Well, from the time he arrived at the Wall it was established that he was a vastly superior swordsman compared to anyone there.

Why, "the whole of the north" would be aware of this - or talk about it - is another matter, I guess.

He was better ONLY because he was going against untrained peasants that did not have the luxury of having a master of arms train them. Not even once did Jon show he was anything more than just decent. That goes for the show and the books

[Deleted]

To everyone that expects from a tv show to be realistic.

Oh, not this stupid discussion again. Scroll a few hundred pages back, we already covered the 'realistic within the realm's own rules' thing.

Next time, use quotes.

[Tempguy]

I was sad.

The roles could have been reversed since he was almost Jon Snow.

And yeah, I like the actor too. Hope he gets a big part in another show.

[Krawu]

I don't understand what are you people mad angry about? Because statistics did not work as it should have? What should have happened, death of Starks, on the other side victory of Lannisters over those religious fanatics. South is ruled by Lannisters, north by Boltons. After some times WW's comes down from the north killing everything while Dany incinerates from the south. Maybe some epic clash at the end and that's it? Relax, it's a show based on books, it's a fiction. Sit back and enjoy, if you don't like it don't watch it or accept it as it is.

You may not fall into this category but for a lot of people, nerding out about this stuff is half the fun. Especially for those interested in real world history, GoT is an amazing opportunity to apply historical knowledge to a fictional setting we're passionate about.

And who says that everything always has to work out for the best in this story? The Red Wedding is the best example for this, the Song of Ice and Fire books aren't afraid to go contrary to the readers hopes and wishes yet manage to keep them captivated.

What's so bad if the Boltons got control over the North? Many still like the Lannisters, and having them seek new alliances for a desperate losing battle against an army of religious fanatics would make for an interesting story with lots of drama. The show unfortunately paints the characters way more black and white than the books do, which is why I was majorly confused when Arya suddenly gave a shit about some random woman she was supposed to murder.
So far the already outlined story of the books kept the show on track pretty well, and I'm not the only one who feels that without that, it's starting to derail.

I'll watch it and I won't accept anything I don't like without complaining about it. After all, that's part of what this thread is for.

[dwightyo39]

Could we have another GoT thread for people who enjoy the show? It doesn't have to be ass kissing the series. Just need a thread that isn't full of the same people complaining about the same thing, in every post, for 20 pages, every time an episode airs.

[EyelessCrow]

Could we have another GoT thread for people who enjoy the show? It doesn't have to be ass kissing the series. Just need a thread that isn't full of the same people complaining about the same thing, in every post, for 20 pages, every time an episode airs.

So what you're asking for...is a safe space? No thanks.

[dwightyo39]

So what you're asking for...is a safe space? No thanks.

Lol no. I read the books and watch the show. It's just the redundant level of bitching and moaning in this thread.

[Jotaux]

Could we have another GoT thread for people who enjoy the show? It doesn't have to be ass kissing the series. Just need a thread that isn't full of the same people complaining about the same thing, in every post, for 20 pages, every time an episode airs.

Everyone here loves the show, if they didn't they wouldn't be analyzing every episode down to each minute detail and posting their findings here.

I am just as guilty, being annoyed at the lack of ghost last episode.