Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Rikhart]

Subtlety is actually a really well made spec where everything works together, and has a TON of small details you have to keep track of, one of the highest skill cap specs in legion i would say, with lots of depth. Dont think most have actually tried to understand it that well.

[Deleted]

Maybe you want to share your science with everyone? Not that I'm disagreeing here, but it would help your argument to give more details

[Rikhart]

Even if i usually dont like his videos, I think this is a good summary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqCqZbx8nbc

Really nice spec! Pretty sure it will be one of the top single target specs in the game.

[Deleted]

I'm really loving Subtlety right now but there's 2 things that "bother" me a bit and that's the RNG with resetting shadow-dance through Deepening Shadows and the RNG with the passive Shadow Techniques. It seems to happens a lot that you get combopoints through Shadow Techniques and at the same time you're hitting Shadowstrike, backstab, etc and thus wasting those CP's.

[Mafic]

Subtlety is actually a really well made spec where everything works together, and has a TON of small details you have to keep track of, one of the highest skill cap specs in legion i would say, with lots of depth. Dont think most have actually tried to understand it that well.

Definitely not the highest skill cap spec in Legion. Sub is basically a Cloak and Dagger mongloid spec. For layered depth and nuances Assassination wins hands between the three specs.

[Rikhart]

Definitely not the highest skill cap spec in Legion. Sub is basically a Cloak and Dagger mongloid spec. For layered depth and nuances Assassination wins hands between the three specs.

Haha, no. Makes me think you didnt even play the specs, assassination is the most brainless and boring shit there is.

[elfporn]

Definitely not the highest skill cap spec in Legion. Sub is basically a Cloak and Dagger mongloid spec. For layered depth and nuances Assassination wins hands between the three specs.

Assassination is...straightforward maintain DoTs, burst in burst window, envenom for kingsbane, exs for burst window, etc. Never thought it was complicated at all.

Sub though, is atleast as complicated as it is now, possible moreso

[Hobbes0773]

Definitely not the highest skill cap spec in Legion. Sub is basically a Cloak and Dagger mongloid spec. For layered depth and nuances Assassination wins hands between the three specs.

Not even close man. Assassination is very similar to live (maybe a dash of feral druid thrown in) while sub is completely different and actually more complex than sub on live (debatebly more complex).

I don't know about "most complex spec in legion" but for rogues, it easily wins.

[Mafic]

Haha, no. Makes me think you didnt even play the specs, assassination is the most brainless and boring shit there is.

Nope. Infexious gaming covered it recently in his video overview guides.

- - - Updated - - -

Assassination is...straightforward maintain DoTs, burst in burst window, envenom for kingsbane, exs for burst window, etc. Never thought it was complicated at all.

Sub though, is atleast as complicated as it is now, possible moreso

RNG Shadow Dance charges =/= complexity.

I get it you think RNG game play means complexity...if that is the case then Outlaw is the most complex spec in the game right? Wrong. It is the most mind numbing spec in the game because of RNG.

Legion Sub is a cloak and dagger mongloid spec.

- - - Updated - - -

Not even close man. Assassination is very similar to live (maybe a dash of feral druid thrown in) while sub is completely different and actually more complex than sub on live (debatebly more complex).

I don't know about "most complex spec in legion" but for rogues, it easily wins.

Legion Sub is definitely not more complex than live Sub. Not buying that argument for a second.

[Sicarius87]

Assassination is...straightforward maintain DoTs, burst in burst window, envenom for kingsbane, exs for burst window, etc. Never thought it was complicated at all.

Sub though, is atleast as complicated as it is now, possible moreso

What talents are you using and what's your rotation for assassination and sub? Assassination feels to energy starved with bleeds.

Sub plays way easier on beta than live.

[defury]

Even if i usually dont like his videos, I think this is a good summary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqCqZbx8nbc

Really nice spec! Pretty sure it will be one of the top single target specs in the game.

Sub is the lowest dps of the 3 rogue specs let alone top single damage in general, hell rogues aren't even top dps no matter what spec. I like bay but he knows nothing when it comes to rogues and hyped the spec up without even fully understanding a lot of it's mechanics. The spec is not complex in the slightest. I'd go as far as saying it's one of the easier specs in the game on beta.

[Rikhart]

Sub is the lowest dps of the 3 rogue specs let alone top single damage in general, hell rogues aren't even top dps no matter what spec. I like bay but he knows nothing when it comes to rogues and hyped the spec up without even fully understanding a lot of it's mechanics. The spec is not complex in the slightest. I'd go as far as saying it's one of the easier specs in the game on beta.

I was not talking about beta, where tuning hasn´t even begun, I was talking about live, where I´m sure Sub will be one of the strongest single target, apart from already being one of the most well made and complex specs in the beta.

Btw, sub is miles away ahead of outlaw, and close to assassination.

[Deleted]

Sub is the lowest dps of the 3 rogue specs let alone top single damage in generalSNIP

Please don't post information when you have no idea what you're talking about. You are misinforming other potential rogue players.
OT : Sub and Assa are both doing quite well(despite a lot more people that play Assa), was playing Assa initially and the power that it has on cleave, on single target (exsang.) is great.
At this point in time where most people on beta are in heroic/mythic dungeons, it does perform very well. The strongest thing about Sub is Finality, as soon as you unlock that, you see the numbers skyrocketing.

[Kalador]

Nope. Infexious gaming covered it recently in his video overview guides.

Legion Sub is definitely not more complex than live Sub. Not buying that argument for a second.

Go play it on PTR... don't waist cp, don't cap energy, DfA on CD, 100% on shadowblade and SoD, and don't cap Shadow dance procs, use 3 gcd per ShD and come back to tell us how fucking ez it is... you're full of it, new sub is hard to play perfectly, it's probably harder than it is on live, and that's without finality and all that crap...

Both assa and sub have really good min maxing potential especially with the right talent set up.

[Deleted]

I also don't see how Assassination is more complex than Subtlety. Aside from one more bleed to keep up and different talent tree, it's still the same as Live.

Infexious Gaming made it almost sound like the spec was all about casting as many Shadowstrikes as possible. His build for Sub is also somewhat questionable: Subterfuge, Vigor and Premed is so much potential for wasting CPs, and I highly doubt the extra Shadowstrike and extra second from MoS make up for it. At least for me, from my short experience with the revamped spec, I find it much more important to be able to throw many powerful Finishers that generate Energy than simply increasing your Energy bar and regen.

To me the spec is all about resource management - how you can make the best out of all your CPs to throw in as many Finishers as possible; Shadow Dance is out of the spotlight here. Sloppy play heavily punishes the player with wasted CPs, wasted Energy, wasted ShD charges and wasted SoD uptime. Proper resource management will mean more Finishers which, aside from the obvious more damage, also means more Energy and more ShD charges.

[kalaratic]

To me the spec is all about resource management - how you can make the best out of all your CPs to throw in as many Finishers as possible

i reallllly want this to be the main skill component of sub but as long as shadow techniques is still a random proc rate i wouldn't ever say resource management is a thing. there's nothing more soul crushing than looking at ur logs to see how to improve, looking at combo points, and seeing shadow techniques caused like 45 wasted cp. they are taking rng too far with this spec

[Deleted]

I know, it's incredibly frustrating when you're at 5CP with DS, waiting for ST to proc a 6th while you pool Energy for a Shadow Dance, and you end up having to Backstab anyway because the CP never procs. It makes the pooling gameplay completely unreliable. That's why I really hope Enveloping Shadows ends up being the top talent in its row, I feel like it's such an important mechanic to smooth the gameplay. Shadow Techniques was the worst idea possible to make an independent HaT and I'll always maintain that ES should have been baseline.

[Mafic]

Go play it on PTR... don't waist cp, don't cap energy, DfA on CD, 100% on shadowblade and SoD, and don't cap Shadow dance procs, use 3 gcd per ShD and come back to tell us how fucking ez it is... you're full of it, new sub is hard to play perfectly, it's probably harder than it is on live, and that's without finality and all that crap...

Both assa and sub have really good min maxing potential especially with the right talent set up.

Again, stupid RNG =/= complexity.

How do you play Outlaw Rogue efficiently and effectively without wasting CP or energy when all the buff are up? Humanly impossible.

Sub isn't the only spec designed poorly with layers of RNG with cp generation and energy in Legion. Assasination suffers the least which is why performance wise it feels subjectively better to the player because they can manage resources like energy and CP. If the energy was tweaked Assassination would be very, very good.

- - - Updated - - -

i reallllly want this to be the main skill component of sub but as long as shadow techniques is still a random proc rate i wouldn't ever say resource management is a thing. there's nothing more soul crushing than looking at ur logs to see how to improve, looking at combo points, and seeing shadow techniques caused like 45 wasted cp. they are taking rng too far with this spec

This. +!

Resource management pretty much is non existent for Sub and Outlaw in Legion which makes the spec just mashing buttons at this point and watching buff timers.

[Deleted]

Nothing is hard but with every extra layer of shit the difficulty is increasing. Raiding 101. With this attitude you can just say that Botanist is easy, because all of his abilities are elementary.

SD stacks RNG is that extra layer, even fishing for True Bearing is. Watching Outlaw energy isnt, because you are GCD capped during CDs.

[elfporn]

Again, stupid RNG =/= complexity.

How do you play Outlaw Rogue efficiently and effectively without wasting CP or energy when all the buff are up? Humanly impossible.

Sub isn't the only spec designed poorly with layers of RNG with cp generation and energy in Legion. Assasination suffers the least which is why performance wise it feels subjectively better to the player because they can manage resources like energy and CP. If the energy was tweaked Assassination would be very, very good.

- - - Updated - - -



This. +!

Resource management pretty much is non existent for Sub and Outlaw in Legion which makes the spec just mashing buttons at this point and watching buff timers.

Deepening shadows rng can be planned for and mitigated with good play.

Shadow tech rng is more difficult to mitigate because of the pace of the spec, we can't sit around forever waiting on that proc.