20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Lilija]

But people are saying that class representation is one of the big reasons 20 man is such an amazing idea......and all those cool class specific mechanics they were going to add meaning you had to have one of each class in the raid....right?

Stacking classes during actual progression happened by far less than in any other expantion. Also, not having the best comp for certain bosses hurt less than in any other expantion meaning bosses like Xhul were actually doable w/o Death Knights (while much harder) unlike Lei Shen on 25.

And that Arcane thingy is the problem comming from:
- the ring
- the fact that content lasts so much and the gear is so good that it goes over certain forseeable scaling issues

What new and interesting mechanics did Gorefiend bring exactly....they did the whole 'go into another realm and kill/tank/heal adds thing only last expac on sha, and there have been many other bosses with similar mechanics. The way they made it sound at blizzcon and in Q&As was that the team had a lot of actually new and interesting mechanics which were IMPOSSIBLE to do on two raid sizes....

Dealing the ghosts on Mythic was something rather new. Finding the balance between people staying out and it. Progressing this boss was a very unique experience - something that never happened before.

Also, "having space for more fun mechanics" doesn't mean we will suddenly see a revolution. It means there is space for better ideas tho those ideas still need to emerge. WoD raids felt much different in general than anything before and there is tons of potential for even better stuff.

[Mahourai]

There is by definition no new design space opened up in 20M. It's impossible to conceive of a fight in 20M that couldn't exist in an identical form on 25H - aside from totally arbitrary distinctions like not being able to split up into exactly four groups of five players.

[kary]

There is by definition no new design space opened up in 20M. It's impossible to conceive of a fight in 20M that couldn't exist in an identical form on 25H - aside from totally arbitrary distinctions like not being able to split up into exactly four groups of five players.

Yes 20 man encounters could happen in 25m
But not in 10m
That's the point.

10m was what the designers didn't like tuning, or at least that's the impression I got.

[cFortyfive]

by far less than in any other expantion.

Not exactly sure where you see that.

[clevin]

55 pages? Come on. Did more or fewer raids start each tier? Complete each tier? If more people tried Mythic and especially completed it, then it was a success. If not, not.

I personally don't raid at that level but I never really understood them picking 20 vs 15. For a couple of expansions (really, since Wrath), they'd had to try more and more things to get people into 25s... the community in general seemed to prefer 10s. So when they decided to make N and H flex but wanted a fixed size for the highest level.... they pick a size closer to 25 than 10?? I get why 10 wouldn't work - they couldn't assume you were free to bring any class since there are more than 10 classes. But if that was the gating factor in deciding the size... 15 allows a raid to bring all of the classes too.

[cFortyfive]

more people

What an exciting conclusion after said 55 pages.

[Lilija]

Not exactly sure where you see that.

I gave examples. The bottom line is tho, lack of certain classes/specs was less painfull during progression than in other expantions.

[cFortyfive]

I gave examples. The bottom line is tho, lack of certain classes/specs was less painfull during progression than in other expantions.

Lei shen was certainly a quite hard encounter. Still the better classes seem to me just as prevalent during progression as ever and there is probably even less space for unpopular specs. Obviously balancing was different so you didn't want 4 warlocks this time around.

[Relapses]

Lei shen was certainly a quite hard encounter. Still the better classes seem to me just as prevalent during progression as ever and there is probably even less space for unpopular specs. Obviously balancing was different so you didn't want 4 warlocks this time around.

Did you do Heroic Lei Shen on 10M without locks? It wasn't fun.

[cFortyfive]

Did you do Heroic Lei Shen on 10M without locks? It wasn't fun.

I would have probably played any 10m encounter with two locks ezpz since warlocks were op as fuck. Not sure though why that question is coming up.

[Osmeric]

55 pages? Come on. Did more or fewer raids start each tier? Complete each tier? If more people tried Mythic and especially completed it, then it was a success. If not, not.

It's not obvious to me that more people completing mythic was Blizzard's goal (except perhaps in the last part of the final tier where mythic serves as extension content for otherwise non-mythic raiders.)

[Relapses]

I would have probably played any 10m encounter with two locks ezpz since warlocks were op as fuck. Not sure though why that question is coming up.

Because Lei Shen 10H is a perfect example of why class representation matters.

[Deleted]

Please, only the most biased fucking idiot would call garrosh harder on 25 man.

10 man had 15 adds in the intermission. 25 man had 15 adds in the intermission. How much better do you think 10 people have to play to keep 15 adds stunned or interrupted so they can't cast? 25 people can almost roll their faces along the keyboard and chances are you've nailed that part.

This isn't even talking about the first phase where ironstars hurt and 25's had infinitely more CD's for them (and ways to control the adds)

Then we get to the phase with the sha adds that spawn. 25 man took *any* undergeared monk that could kite the adds for eternity without being touched. That negated a mechanic and allowed that dps saved from killing adds to be pumped into the boss.

So tell me again how 25 man was harder...

If i remember correct.You do not attack all 15 adds at once on 10 man it was like destroy first 3 groups for few seconds and finish off last 2 before they think to cast something control was far more easy because adds HP.We use Monk and DK tanks in both 10/25 and sha adds was done in similar way monk tank just kite them around till DK hold the boss and every one push the dps on him

[cFortyfive]

Because Lei Shen 10H is a perfect example of why class representation matters.

Well not sure who made a case about class representation not mattering at all.
Anyways mop balance and tuning was in quite a couple ways just hilarious. All the emphasis on completely broken tanks, invincible warlocks, disc priests.
While that might be a bit less ridiculous now I'd still say not much has changed as far as favoring the better classes during progression or at the very least not something I'd call far different since that would mean to me blackhand should have been an enjoyable progression experience without the appropriate number of suitable ranged specs and not using rogues for instance.

[nekobaka]

With the linking of stats, I will link a couple from chaud.

Four months after SoO opening.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...Tweets-DLC-423
Three months after BRF opening.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...metra-Gameplay

[Nyxiology]

I mean, people are doing it.

[Lilija]

Lei shen was certainly a quite hard encounter. Still the better classes seem to me just as prevalent during progression as ever and there is probably even less space for unpopular specs. Obviously balancing was different so you didn't want 4 warlocks this time around.

Yes, some classes made encounters easier but lack of them didn't mean they were undoable. I am speaking from the perspective of a guild that had issues with keeping all class roster from a while. In MoP we had to resolve to alts. In WoD not having some classes only ment we had to take different approach and the encounter was slightly harder. This is a huge difference.

[Relapses]

Yes, some classes made encounters easier but lack of them didn't mean they were undoable. I am speaking from the perspective of a guild that had issues with keeping all class roster from a while. In MoP we had to resolve to alts. In WoD not having some classes only ment we had to take different approach and the encounter was slightly harder. This is a huge difference.

The impact of not having the right classes in a smaller raid is far greater than it is in a larger raid. Imo, that's the general underlying importance of class representation in Mythic raids.

[ConradSlater]

As myself, I hate 20 man Mythic because I don't want to raid with more than 10 people and yet can't do 'DA HARDEST RAIDING IN DA GAME' without being in a larger group, so I haven't liked it much.

[Greenmagoo]

With the linking of stats, I will link a couple from chaud.

Four months after SoO opening.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...Tweets-DLC-423
Three months after BRF opening.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...metra-Gameplay

Looks about equal and this is when the subscription numbers are about the same. The normal mode/flex difficulty looks good and is a good slap in the face from the one winner about normal mode in this thread. Looking at the LFR participation numbers for SoO show a harsh decline as well with BRF being higher countering the comments of LFR being dead as far as the first tier is concerned.

The impact of not having the right classes in a smaller raid is far greater than it is in a larger raid. Imo, that's the general underlying importance of class representation in Mythic raids.

Having done both 10 and 25 man in Cata. OMG was class balance a huge deal with raid balance between 10 and 25 man. MoP was better while at the same time still with its screw ups. Mythic is also for the minority of the raiding population. Arguments claiming for the majority are bullshit to cover up ones ego issues.