LFR: Success or Failure?

[kary]

Yep. Quests completion from LFR is 100% garbage. There's no incentive for the baddie to do anything past LFR, and that's inherently bad.
I liked the direction WoD LFR was going but it seems like they changed their minds about it. Oh well. Chances are I won't run LFR anyway but we'll see.

[Deleted]

When the fastest way to get a quest item is LFR then yes you are "forced" to do it and ruin your experience. Say the best gun in CoD only opened by chance when you finished the last mission but could be found on any difficulty. Would you farm it for 20+ hours per try on nightmare or would you go to easy and try to get it in an hour?

Thats not how it works in WoW. It's the opposite in fact.

LFR opens weeks later too, which means the "fastest" way is to run normal/hc. Not sure what exactly "ruins" your expierence either.
You might chose to play it on LFR difficulty because you are too bad/not social enough to do it on normal or higher.
People that do this have no motivation from the get go, they are not interested in it. All these people that start and stop with LFR are players you'd never encounter anyway if you play on higher difficulties. That's the point

You are basically saying "please enjoy the game the way I do".
Your peeps don't want to play PoE with you, because they don't like PoE, not because it was "too easy". They don't have any interest whatsoever in minmaxing that game, because they don't feel like it's worth it
People run Greater rifts 80+ and then there are some that think 50 is enough, everyone has his own comfort level.
People run LFR, but then there are some that like to min/max and run Mythic etc.. Let people do what they want.
If they think LFR is enough, then LFR is enough, why would you force them to do harder stuff if they are obviously not interested and would rather stop playing? (which is what they probably do?)

The important thing right now is that there is a difficulty for everyone and not only that, there is also a more than decent risk&reward system (or effort/reward).
In WoW's case, you can't get the best gun from farming easy difficulty, you get a crude version of the best gun, in some cases, not even that (set items).
This discussion also highlights the problem with Blizzard's focus on Raids btw. If LFR is the reason why people stopped playing, it only means that there is nothing for them to do, other than "seeing" (because they are obviously not playing for the difficulty or because they want to "achieve" something) the Raids.

If Dark Souls started out with the best gear in the game and a teleport to the end boss, you would wonder why the fuck the rest of the game in between even exists. This is exactly how WoW is being designed atm and it absolutely makes no sense, and yes, it ruins the game when anything beyond LFR is ultimately meaningless background noise. Oh! I get a new color of gear that is essentially dye for silver in every other MMO? Neat! Sign me up!! Yeah, no, who cares.

Wow... so every game that has several difficulty levels to choose from is garbage and makes no sense?
You can beat absolutely everygame on "easy" and get the whole 100% story experience, just like WoW. Why is it that so many players don't bother chosing "easy"?

WoW is not designed the way you described, it has absolutely nothing to do with something so absurd. WoW is designed to please everyone and every player at every level of commitment. You don't start with the best gear, you don't even *GET* the best gear on "easy" (unlike most other games where difficulty doesn't change item drops). You don't even get to teleport to the end boss, you actually *have* to play everything in between. You can't start with LFR wing 3, you need to start at 1, beat every boss and....ugh, why do I even bother. This is so wrong, I don't know where to end this.

[gr4v3r]

Thats not how it works in WoW. It's the opposite in fact.

LFR opens weeks later too, which means the "fastest" way is to run normal/hc. Not sure what exactly "ruins" your expierence either.
You might chose to play it on LFR difficulty because you are too bad/not social enough to do it on normal or higher.
People that do this have no motivation from the get go, they are not interested in it. All these people that start and stop with LFR are players you'd never encounter anyway if you play on higher difficulties. That's the point

You are basically saying "please enjoy the game the way I do".
Your peeps don't want to play PoE with you, because they don't like PoE, not because it was "too easy". They don't have any interest whatsoever in minmaxing that game, because they don't feel like it's worth it
People run Greater rifts 80+ and then there are some that think 50 is enough, everyone has his own comfort level.
People run LFR, but then there are some that like to min/max and run Mythic etc.. Let people do what they want.
If they think LFR is enough, then LFR is enough, why would you force them to do harder stuff if they are obviously not interested and would rather stop playing? (which is what they probably do?)

The important thing right now is that there is a difficulty for everyone and not only that, there is also a more than decent risk&reward system (or effort/reward).
In WoW's case, you can't get the best gun from farming easy difficulty, you get a crude version of the best gun, in some cases, not even that (set items).
This discussion also highlights the problem with Blizzard's focus on Raids btw. If LFR is the reason why people stopped playing, it only means that there is nothing for them to do, other than "seeing" (because they are obviously not playing for the difficulty or because they want to "achieve" something) the Raids.



Wow... so every game that has several difficulty levels to choose from is garbage and makes no sense?
You can beat absolutely everygame on "easy" and get the whole 100% story experience, just like WoW. Why is it that so many players don't bother chosing "easy"?

WoW is not designed the way you described, it has absolutely nothing to do with something so absurd. WoW is designed to please everyone and every player at every level of commitment. You don't start with the best gear, you don't even *GET* the best gear on "easy" (unlike most other games where difficulty doesn't change item drops). You don't even get to teleport to the end boss, you actually *have* to play everything in between. You can't start with LFR wing 3, you need to start at 1, beat every boss and....ugh, why do I even bother. This is so wrong, I don't know where to end this.

I am fine with there being a difficulty for everyone so long as the rewards have 0 connection. If they removed legendary drops from LFR and put the item level below dungeons there would be no issue. This would mean I have 0 reason to ever enter an lfr if i didnt enjoy it and if I did it is still available. The same issue can be seen with garrisons. Sure some people liked them but the people that didnt were forced to either do a daily mindless, boring, simple task or give up a ton of gold, resources, and mythic level loot. I am sorry but in the current state of WoW the whole "If you don't like it don't do" excuse isnt valid.

[Deleted]

You already have no reason to go LFR, I got my ring in Highmaul and BRF just fine without setting foot in LFR.
There is nothing forcing you to go there, it's not "faster" either unless your group stops running Normal/HC after two weeks for some reason? (Why would any normal group do that?)

LFR is also a catch-up mechanic for twinks and people who are either bad or started late, if you *had* to use it, it was working just fine and as intended.

And what do you mean "in the current state of WoW" was it ever any different at some point?
Didn't you do dailies back then because you *had* to?
Well, the thing is - you actually don't have to... but you want to be "the fastest" I guess, which is why you end up doing it.

It's an alternative though, you don't get anything in LFR (other than transmog/unique sets, which are weaker) that you wouldn't get somewhere else. It's also meant for solo players, that don't have groups running higher difficulties.

Again... it highlights Blizzard "raid only" mentality in WoD. If you could farm stones/legendary questline upgrades somewhere in the open World, I'm sure people would also consider doing that instead of LFR. It's all about (the lack of) options. Which is something they added in 6.2.something I believe. (Apexis for Clusters for example)
So instead of removing an option (LFR instead of running normal/HC/Mythic), they should add some more...
The Legendary Ring questline is "Main-Story" after all, so absolutely 100% of the playerbase should be able to see it. People that like raiding, people that dislike raiding, people that like LFR and people that dislike it.

[access5]

This is one of the main reasons why I truly believe LFR was an abysmal failure. There is a very strong correlation between sub numbers dropping and the introduction of LFR. Just look at the end of Cata until now. Subs on average dropped. Players generally don't want snooze fest shit watered down "raids". Even the casuals don't really want that, they just say they do because they are afraid if it is taken away they will actually have to do something other than click a button to get loot. A few of the highly entitled casuals will leave, great, but I would bet most would stay and the game would become better as a result of the removal of LFR.

I'm inclined to agree with this.

[Fang7986]

I am fine with there being a difficulty for everyone so long as the rewards have 0 connection. If they removed legendary drops from LFR and put the item level below dungeons there would be no issue. This would mean I have 0 reason to ever enter an lfr if i didnt enjoy it and if I did it is still available. The same issue can be seen with garrisons. Sure some people liked them but the people that didnt were forced to either do a daily mindless, boring, simple task or give up a ton of gold, resources, and mythic level loot. I am sorry but in the current state of WoW the whole "If you don't like it don't do" excuse isnt valid.

if you don't like it don't do it is the most valid thing in the game. because if people actually didn't do it Blizz would know what to change. BLizz isn't going to listen to people bitch about garrison missions when they have the data that shows exactly how many people did em. If you bitch about something yet still do it you are telling blizzard "i don't care how awful i think something is I will still do it if there is a reward"

[access5]

if you don't like it don't do it is the most valid thing in the game. because if people actually didn't do it Blizz would know what to change. BLizz isn't going to listen to people bitch about garrison missions when they have the data that shows exactly how many people did em. If you bitch about something yet still do it you are telling blizzard "i don't care how awful i think something is I will still do it if there is a reward"

That is in no way an accurate measure of whether the content was successful or not, given the fact that doing garrison missions was by far the most rewarding content for the time spent doing it. Even if you hated the system, of course you're going to spend 5 mins pressing buttons to get 3k gold and a piece of raid gear. That's the worst thing about garrisons: the risk/reward aspect is SO skewed that I'm still amazed it made it into the game at all.

[anon5123]

Define "success".

In terms of getting more people to see the content, it has been successful.

Outside of that, I think it's largely insulting, dumbing down the content to such a braindead-easy level where you can outright ignore the mechanics and still steamroll your way through the raid. It's a contributing factor in the "omg there's nothing to do" that plagues retail WoW.

Rather sad that nowadays, instead of improving themselves to meet the challenge, players just whine and cry for nerfs.

[kary]

define "success".

In terms of getting more people to see the content, it has been successful.

Outside of that, i think it's largely insulting, dumbing down the content to such a braindead-easy level where you can outright ignore the mechanics and still steamroll your way through the raid. It's a contributing factor in the "omg there's nothing to do" that plagues retail wow.

Rather sad that nowadays, instead of improving themselves to meet the challenge, players just whine and cry for nerfs.

basically, tbqh.

[Osmeric]

This is one of the main reasons why I truly believe LFR was an abysmal failure. There is a very strong correlation between sub numbers dropping and the introduction of LFR. Just look at the end of Cata until now. Subs on average dropped.

What a typical Jaylock nonsense argument.

Subs began dropping BEFORE LFR was added. Most of the sub loss in Cataclysm was before LFR. In the two quarters after LFR was added, subs were nearly flat.

There is zero evidence that LFR has had any negative effect on net subs, just biased supposition from people who have an incentive to ignore the plain facts (as Jaylock did there). If you disagree, please explain what different design you would have proposed that would have performed better. If it's "just the same, except no LFR" then please give up.

[gr4v3r]

Define "success".

In terms of getting more people to see the content, it has been successful.

Outside of that, I think it's largely insulting, dumbing down the content to such a braindead-easy level where you can outright ignore the mechanics and still steamroll your way through the raid. It's a contributing factor in the "omg there's nothing to do" that plagues retail WoW.

Rather sad that nowadays, instead of improving themselves to meet the challenge, players just whine and cry for nerfs.

I would call it a failure in getting people to see the content. I quit before HFC and came back so I had to do LFR to catch up. It was so mindless I could not tell you about a single boss fight, it was honestly hard knowing what was trash and what was a boss. I ran HFC lfr a ton to finish my ring and I do not know 1 thing about a single encounter there.... but hey i got my legendary ring!

[Fang7986]

That is in no way an accurate measure of whether the content was successful or not, given the fact that doing garrison missions was by far the most rewarding content for the time spent doing it. Even if you hated the system, of course you're going to spend 5 mins pressing buttons to get 3k gold and a piece of raid gear. That's the worst thing about garrisons: the risk/reward aspect is SO skewed that I'm still amazed it made it into the game at all.

the only way Blizz can measure success is by how many players do it and they are the only ones with accurate numbers. and no if you actually hated it you wouldn't be doing it gold be damned

- - - Updated - - -

basically, tbqh.

you can ignore or at least fudge the mechanics to most of the game though once you start to overgear stuff. any dungeon run after the first month of an xpac will show you that. and the fact is the majority of players don't want a challenge, they want to have fun.

[nekobaka]

you can ignore or at least fudge the mechanics to most of the game though once you start to overgear stuff. any dungeon run after the first month of an xpac will show you that. and the fact is the majority of players don't want a challenge, they want to have fun.

Just because something is challenging does not mean is it not fun for someone. There are other factors in play including wipes and clear times. Not everyone wants to sit there wipe after wipe for two months into the expansions when content is on farm for them because one random queue keeps failing mechanics. Others also find long activities to become grueling. Then there are those who do not like the activity anyways and just do it for the the rewards.

Trivial content is generally pain free and quick even with an AFK dbag, fun or not. Also what is challenging to a player is relative.

[Bonezerker]

the only way Blizz can measure success is by how many players do it and they are the only ones with accurate numbers. and no if you actually hated it you wouldn't be doing it gold be damned

People do things they hate all the time if the rewards are great enough. If the shipyard wasn't a requirement for the legendary ring, I wouldn't have completed one mission.

the majority of players don't want a challenge

This I do agree with.

[Nyxiology]

Success in that it is used, failure in that it has detracted from the purity of raiding.

[ConradSlater]

I think it's a success in the merit that it lets people 'raid', but I really think they should remove the gear drops from it. It's annoying because it breeds the mindset of 'YOU HAVE TO DO THE LFR BEFORE THE ACTUAL RAID TO GEAR FOR IT' and people get stuck in the misconception that the gear progression is LFR>Normal>Heroic>Mythic.

[Jaylock]

I think it's a success in the merit that it lets people 'raid', but I really think they should remove the gear drops from it. It's annoying because it breeds the mindset of 'YOU HAVE TO DO THE LFR BEFORE THE ACTUAL RAID TO GEAR FOR IT' and people get stuck in the misconception that the gear progression is LFR>Normal>Heroic>Mythic.

People have been wanting gear drops removed from LFR since it was made. There is really no reason to have gear in it in the first place. Normal+ raiding is where Blizzard wants to funnel players and if they give "i win" gear to the toxic plague in LFR then what incentive does it give players to move up to organized raiding?

[hachidori]

I believe LFR has done more harm than good, as have raid difficulties in general.

Back in vanilla and Burning Crusade there was no "raid tiers." If you saw MC, you saw MC; if you saw BT, you saw BT; etcetera. Just being invited to a raid and seeing the content was considered an achievement due to the content's exclusivity. If you downed a single boss in one of these raids (even 'easy' ones like the Lurker Below) it said to prospective raiders "this guy has proven he can cooperate, it's entirely possible we can help him gear up and give him a spot in our raid line-up."

Compare and contrast to the present patch: you can not only see the very final big bad of the expansion but also kill him (on Heroic, no less) for a pittance of gold. Gear is dropped into your lap to do this so long as you have the time to slog away at menial tasks (as opposed to actual accomplishments) and even your grandmother could probably get into a Mythic HFC group before Legion's pre-patch. There's no mysticism or glory to current raid content. It's the content equivalent to what heroic dungeons were in Wrath of the Lich King: easily-cleared crap to get you geared.

I understand Blizzard is running a business here but nobody will remain invested in the game if it's so easy, as one could verify by the ever-lowering subscription estimates. The trick here is engagement, and handing players whatever they want just because they showed up is not how you keep people engaged.

[Osmeric]

I understand Blizzard is running a business here but nobody will remain invested in the game if it's so easy, as one could verify by the ever-lowering subscription estimates. The trick here is engagement, and handing players whatever they want just because they showed up is not how you keep people engaged.

The blatant error in your argument is the idea that people will be invested in a game that is far beyond their reach, like BC was. They won't be, which is why that model is gone and will never come back. Other MMOs that tried it (like Rift) failed to retain players.

[Jaylock]

The blatant error in your argument is the idea that people will be invested in a game that is far beyond their reach, like BC was. They won't be, which is why that model is gone and will never come back. Other MMOs that tried it (like Rift) failed to retain players.

And everything you just said right there is complete bullshit.

TBC grew the MOST over every other expansion in terms of subs. There were other MMOs out there too.. hmm how could that be??? It grew by 5 million subs.

And don't spout more bullshit about how it was "new" because when TBC came out the game was 2 and a half years old. Not new by any stretch. It was the game having compelling content and grinds that kept players engaged and thus they stayed subbed.

When players can click a fucking button and see the end boss of the game, there isn't much incentive to stay subbed after they have "seen it all". And in a casuals eyes, they seen it all after killing shit in Looking for retards.

I can tell you what, when I played in TBC I stayed subbed precisely because I couldn't get into SC AND TK and BT, because ya know what, I WANTED to get into those raids, and eventually I did after passing the trials required to get in. I couldn't just click a button and see a limp dick version of the raid that guaranteed me kills with enough stacks of determination.

I say, if these casual assholes can't take 2 dungeons being off the queue, and the meta dungeon mount being mythic only, then they can fuck off and play another game. Don't ruin our game with that casual bullshit queue.