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  1. #121
    I don't see why we need any more than Main Attack, Proc Attack, Finisher, and Special (i.e. a cooldown ability) for attacking, and an interrupt and stun for general utility for DPS classes. Then you have the class specific "flavor" abilities that are fun/whatever. Frankly, having more than that is a bit of a clutter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    Whatever. There is a reason you guys are the final million (or two) active subscribers to WoW. The other dozens of millions of players who tried WoW over the years left because the game would never modernize itself. Its story and world design are quite appealing, but its gameplay is ancient. It stems from a particular branch of game design which was prevalent in the late 90s and early 00s, and which grew popular mostly because of technical limitations at the time rather than its inherent qualities.

    Games like Overwatch and the Witcher 3 do just fine with fewer buttons. I'd argue TW3 is a lot more immersive than WoW as well, so it certainly doesn't suffer in that regard because of having fewer buttons to press. There are potions to brew, spells to keep track of, and clever encounters to overcome. Complexity and difficulty are not dependant on having as many buttons as possible. Complexity could just as well derive from customizing your skills between combat, or the impact of consumables and gear on your gameplay, or the way various skills and abilities synergise to create an enhanced effect. Difficulty doesn't have to boil down to learning a specific rotation and hammering it into your muscle memory. It could be more reliant on spatial awareness, aim, and how well you use the few abilities given to you.

    You're welcome to call me a troll with zero grasp of game design if that's what you think, but you're in a shrinking minority and that's something you're going to have to deal with once WoW goes below the 500k mark and Blizzard cuts down on development resources in favour of their newer games.

    WoW needs to re-invent itself partly if it is to keep going strong, and this could be one way of doing it.
    I imagine a huge portion of why so many millions (IIRC, over 40 million or so) people left WoW over the years is because of one or all of these things:

    1 - A focus on raiding with no clear avenue to advance to it without being explicitly social and committed (Made better in WOTLK, ruined in Cata, made perfect by the end of MoP, and ruined again in WoD)
    2 - The fact that the game changes radically with every single expansion. I have a feeling this has caused a lot more people to quit the game than a lot of people realize.
    3 - The long end of expansion year long lulls
    4 - They make wild design decisions that are massively heavy handed, without taking any middle ground. Then reverse it back to another extreme when people complain.

  2. #122

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkina View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zzxowtW0Rg&t=1m23s

    ahh

    yet again you're talking about people playing vanilla back in 2004-2006, failing to realize that in general players were horrible back then. if you go onto a 100% blizzlike vanilla private server nowadays you'll quickly notice that every raider is running almost the exact same talent tree for each boss/raid.

    i'm still interested in your current wow experience though
    31/0/20 Arcane-Frost Mage

    Nice cherry picking tho, next time pull something out of context and try to present it as argument
    Quote Originally Posted by Daralii View Post
    An orc named after Jesus firing a kamehameha at a tentacle dragon and making it explode into fairy dust before a group of dragons don't lament the loss of their once-friend or the now inevitable extinction of their species due to their newfound sterility and mortality but instead congratulate him on knocking up his wife was pretty fucking insane even by this series' standards.

  4. #124
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantelija View Post
    31/0/20 Arcane-Frost Mage

    Nice cherry picking tho, next time pull something out of context and try to present it as argument
    ?????

    you said vanilla specs were complex and you've yet to prove that, the video I just linked was literally the first one that came up when I searched "frost mage vanilla raiding"

    answer me this time, what is your actual experience in the current game and show some proof

  5. #125
    so in 5 active skill what do we have ? 1 damaging/healing button, 1 offensive cooldown, 1 defensive cooldown, 1 utility spell and 1 movement spell ? sounds great !

    On a serious note, you should stop thinking, the fact that you are bad at the game and unable to manage more than 2 spells doesn't mean other people might. RPG complexity is the death of Adaptability and/or is flow breaker plus prone tu unbalancing. I don't want to play skyrim.

  6. #126
    Deleted
    Now i read ops post a secknd time im semi fairly convinced its a troll post.. Phew!

    So ehhh yeahh lets go petition for a wow game boy color release next expansion! ( sub rogue, the only class ive played on beta is troublingly close to making this possible)

  7. #127
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Loads of skills on the hotbar that went unsused a lot of the time. Those 2 button rotations, so much depth yo.
    If you were raiding, sure.

    If you were engaging in some of the world encounters, doing 5 mans or on a pvp realm, having all those extra tools made for a better gameplay experience (at times.)

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If you were raiding, sure.

    If you were engaging in some of the world encounters, doing 5 mans or on a pvp realm, having all those extra tools made for a better gameplay experience (at times.)
    Random buttons like mana drain, raise ally (as a short-lived ghoul), et cetera, were fun, but the fun-killers (players, not Blizzard) are always looking for a way to turn something that most people either enjoy or don't care about, into something that "must" be deleted from the game.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    What ho,

    Skill prune 2.0 is almost here, and with it lots of familiar skills, talents and glyphs are being removed or altered. Good riddance, I say. In prune 3.0, whenever that happens, they should take it even further in my opinion. A system can have a lot of complexity and flexibility without being cluttered. I think they should aim for the following numbers per specialization:


    • 5 active abilities (skills and spells that you use)
    • 5 passive abilities (skills and spells that function in the background and require no input)

    Then you could remove the skillbars from the game and instead have it play like a modern RPG, coupled with the new action camera. On top of this, a whole new market would open up on console.

    Naturally, there can still be a ton of complexity and class customization behind the scenes. Skills can be manipulated and altered using glyphs or skill points, and specializations as well as talents can still provide an additional layer of skill customization.
    Wow simply turns into World of Diablocraft. We will have talents only - i.e. no base abilities at all.

    I don't want it to happen. Wow should not be as simple, as Diablo - is should have some depth. For me optimal amount of abilities - is 16-20, excluding those, that can be clicked via mouse. Abilities should be split into 4 categories:
    1) Single target rotation - 4-5 abilities
    2) AOE rotation - 4-5 abilities
    3) Offensive CDs - 4-5 abilities
    4) Defensive CDs - 4-5 abilities

    Examples of my current action bars, that are very close to ideal ones:

    Retribution Paladin:


    Feral Druid:


    Elemental Shaman:
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2016-06-22 at 10:07 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  10. #130
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Wow simply turns into World of Diablocraft. We will have talents only - i.e. no base abilities at all.

    I don't want it to happen. Wow should not be as simple, as Diablo - is should have some depth. For me optimal amount of abilities - is 16-20, excluding those, that can be clicked via mouse. Abilities should be split into 4 categories:
    1) Single target rotation - 4-5 abilities
    2) AOE rotation - 4-5 abilities
    3) Offensive CDs - 4-5 abilities
    4) Defensive CDs - 4-5 abilities
    What they have done is shift character complexity towards encounter complexity.

    i see, why, it means if you are raiding new encounters you are always learning, which equals fun for a lot of people. But something is lost in the process for everybody else.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    What they have done is shift character complexity towards encounter complexity.

    i see, why, it means if you are raiding new encounters you are always learning, which equals fun for a lot of people. But something is lost in the process for everybody else.
    This is crappy design. Have you ever played Wildstar? I've played. And what can I say: action combat, where character complexity is shifted towards encounter complexity - is fun only for first 10 minutes. Then it becomes boring.


    And Wow was so successful exactly due to it's depth. You can compare Wow to Mortal Kombat 3. In the past fightings were one-button style and only MK3 brought decent level of depth into fighting genre.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  12. #132
    OP is a wannabe console player


    WOW will not happen on consoles.

    /endthread

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by zivlaks View Post
    Unpopular opinion: prune 2.0 made the game better.
    it didn't for me, prot warrior has never been so boring.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by IKT View Post
    it didn't for me, prot warrior has never been so boring.
    You think you don't want the prune, but you do

  15. #135
    The prune hasn't affected some specializations, most notably anything that had a redesign (obviously). Some classes did get pruned in a lot of ways, but usually in the way of passives / mechanics that were automatically there. I played quite a few classes on the PTR and, while some classes did feel the same as WoD (Almost nothing new) -- they felt like it was stream lined better with worse gear. Otherwise, pruning is generally a very bad thing and tends to lead players into very simplistic play styles that become monotonous within a short time span.

    Someone mentioned WildStar and while I do agree there is some depth lost in the limited action bar, the focus is on the combat itself AND the abilities -- not just the abilities THAN combat. Tab target MMORPGs are naturally abilities first, action second. So in that regard, it makes sense as to why cutting abilities and removing any complexity would be extremely negative. But in an action MMORPG your skill and complexity is more in the combat pacing itself, where you integrate the abilities a lot more within it.

    Obviously WoW has implemented this kind of ideal more successfully over the years, within some specializations. I think the most notorious ones are any stand-still DPS specs or anything where you plant town a 'turret' (Yourself) and go to town as much as possible. Arcane Mage being the #1 in WoW for that, I believe.

  16. #136
    Deleted
    I dislike the concept of having a lot of buttons to press, but when you put the typical WoW playstyle into practice, the majority of a class toolkit includes generic things like resurrects, out of combat utility (Like Slow Fall), Buffs, etc. When you boil it down to what you'll be using 9/10 of the time, you only have about 5-7 rotational abilities anyway. We don't need another purge. Personally, I think Legion has a fair balance of abilities (Although maybe we could do with a few more talents that give us new buttons to press? Some specs feel a little empty.) I'd never complain about having less buttons to press because that makes the game easier, but is a loss of challenge really what we want in an MMO? I doubt it.

    After playing Guild Wars 2 exclusively for a few months, I came back to WoW and couldn't adjust to the whole slew of actionbars. So I made a personal UI that only has 1-12, mimicking the way you'd have weapon skills (which I'd put my rotational spells in) on the left, and then utility skills (which I'd put cooldowns, interrupts, dispels) on the right. I actually still use this UI today, although it has progressively evolved away from the Guild Wars style. Naturally, WoW has many more buttons no matter how much you might try to squeeze them into small actionbars, so I ended up giving each button in the UI two abilities. The second spell I'd use CTRL to access whilst pressing the original key. For example, "2" is my spammable single target ability, like Mind Flay, but "CTRL+2" is my spammable AoE ability, like Mind Sear.

    It's worked out pretty well so far, and will only work better in Legion with fewer abilities. If you're really feeling overwhelmed in WoW, try shrinking the visuals of your actionbars.

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