BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Hooked]

What if the uk votes to stay in and a few months later france and Germany vote out, that would sure suck.

[Slant]

the risk of staying in? is there really much in the way of risk, I don't see anarchy outside right now. so Europe isn't destroying the country?

The risk of voting out.

[Kalis]

Isn't his grandson's name George, too? I get it, you guys like George but heck, isn't it a bit much? What about Edwards, Johns, Henrys? Or take a proper German name... what about King Hans I. of England?

Charles would be George VII or Edward IX, so both are common.

Henry IX, so still common. John II, but likely a no no as King John was regarded as a bit of dick.

[Heathy]

The risk of voting out.

I'm just tired i've been up way too long i thought you were insinuating something else.

I've tried to stay as non bias as possible but i just can't see this as anything other than a massive step backward. for the sake of a patriotic boner.

[DarkAmbient]

He often speaks out about environmental and climate change issues, he recently spoke out about radical Islam and integration.

Not exactly party political issues, but big political issues.

Those are more general issues. You won't find senior royals backing political parties or candidates in elections, or endorsing cuts to public services, or saying which way to vote in the EU referendum etc, not publically at least. Charles has come very close to crossing the line on occasion, to much criticism. The Queen, however, has pretty much kept her mouth shut, and wisely so.

[Pua]

After all the deliberation and all the debates, I've finally decided what I'm going to do tomorrow.

I'm going to spoil the ballot paper.

Both campaigns have been unrelentingly dishonest, disingenuous and ugly. Voting between one set of rich tories and another set makes me want to heave, and I'm tired of the false choice people are being given. Economically, the UK isn't in a position to leave and a lot of people who would otherwise vote for self-sovereignty simply won't do so thanks to that fact. It's become a debate between immigration and economics, with precious little rational debate ever being offered.

So fuck them.

I'm not sure what I'm going to put on the ballot paper yet, most likely an ejaculating penis, but at least I have another day to come up with something more creative.

[Slant]

After all the deliberation and all the debates, I've finally decided what I'm going to do tomorrow.

I'm going to spoil the ballot paper.

Both campaigns have been unrelentingly dishonest, disingenuous and ugly. Voting between one set of rich tories and another set makes me want to heave, and I'm tired of the false choice people are being given. Economically, the UK isn't in a position to leave and a lot of people who would otherwise vote for self-sovereignty simply won't do so thanks to that fact. It's become a debate between immigration and economics, with precious little rational debate ever being offered.

So fuck them.

I'm not sure what I'm going to put on the ballot paper yet, most likely an ejaculating penis, but at least I have another day to come up with something more creative.

That is not at all childish and a reason to increase voting age...

[Whiskeyjack WN]

again not true, there is plenty of evidence suggesting that our relationship with the EU is satisfactory, what isn't known is what will happen if we leave, like a detailed report, no one knows what will happen but a few things are certain.

1) we lose our access to the single market.
2) we have to redo our trade agreements and review our legal system, as they have both been setup in tandem with EU law.
3) something will have to happen with the 3m EU workers in the UK, and again we have over 2m UK nationals working/living in Europe, all these rights will be in question.
4) possibility of a second Scottish referendum.

and thats all i can think of atm and this i've learned by watching informed videos rather than just guessing..

seems likely that we'll lose a good couple mil working tax payers and get given back our retirees living in Spanish villas. brace yourself NHS.

Well again as there is no precedence this is still best guess speculation.

1) You are removed from the single market, but you are making the assumption the the UK will not be able to agree a suitable deal in the 2 years it has before leaving? It may be educated speculation but we cannot truly know the the actions that will be taken.

2) yup same as above these do need to be redone but surely they can be done inside the 2 year period? if a trade agreement can't be reached by then, then i can only assume its not the doomsday people say it will be... otherwise an agreement will be rushed through?

3) Yes how they deal with the current workers is another matter for the government to sort out. I imagine they would probably adopt a system like Australia and issue those already working here visa automatically. New comers would be the ones who need to go through the proper application process.

4) Scottish referendum is an interesting point. Before if they left they could not get into the EU, now if they leave they can? I imagine most of Scottish trade is within the UK? will being in the EU benefit more than being part of the UK? considering the extra fees they would have to pay when independent compared to now?

I have watched and read as much as possible, and we know what happens with staying. The speculation I refer to is in relation to what happens if the UK leaves. Neither side knows what will happen in that scenario so it is all educated guessing and scaremongering,

There are facts out there in relation to remaining for people to see if they bother to look. But the main arguments we are seeing on TV etc is all speculation. Cameron even came out with the line 'I'm not going to confuse you with facts' WTF.. We want as many facts as possible god dammit.

[Heathy]

Well again as there is no precedence this is still best guess speculation.

1) You are removed from the single market, but you are making the assumption the the UK will not be able to agree a suitable deal in the 2 years it has before leaving? It may be educated speculation but we cannot truly know the the actions that will be taken.

2) yup same as above these do need to be redone but surely they can be done inside the 2 year period? if a trade agreement can't be reached by then, then i can only assume its not the doomsday people say it will be... otherwise an agreement will be rushed through?

3) Yes how they deal with the current workers is another matter for the government to sort out. I imagine they would probably adopt a system like Australia and issue those already working here visa automatically. New comers would be the ones who need to go through the proper application process.

4) Scottish referendum is an interesting point. Before if they left they could not get into the EU, now if they leave they can? I imagine most of Scottish trade is within the UK? will being in the EU benefit more than being part of the UK? considering the extra fees they would have to pay when independent compared to now?

I have watched and read as much as possible, and we know what happens with staying. The speculation I refer to is in relation to what happens if the UK leaves. Neither side knows what will happen in that scenario so it is all educated guessing and scaremongering,

There are facts out there in relation to remaining for people to see if they bother to look. But the main arguments we are seeing on TV etc is all speculation. Cameron even came out with the line 'I'm not going to confuse you with facts' WTF.. We want as many facts as possible god dammit.

1) the video i saw said 10 years minimum to reach a new framework agreement with the EU. if leave win they won't accept the free movement of persons which means no single market. that trade agreement is contingent on that element. not to mention the membership fee you have to pay to be part of that market anyway.

2) that could take forever, without access to the single market we may never get the trade deals we want.

4) its a real possibility i mean afterall we'd basically be hypocrites at that point anyway.

we're more likely to know what happens if we stay as, we are already in the EU atm, so, things generally carry on as they are I guess.

I'm really starting to lose steam now, Not sure what i'll do tomorrow, my facebook is dominated by pro brexit shit. its not looking good, walked up the shop earlier and someone drove past me in a Jag with a massive VOTE LEAVE covering the entire rear window. feels like most ppl want out, or there is a massive silent majority voting to stay.

[Jessicka]

Well again as there is no precedence this is still best guess speculation.

1) You are removed from the single market, but you are making the assumption the the UK will not be able to agree a suitable deal in the 2 years it has before leaving? It may be educated speculation but we cannot truly know the the actions that will be taken.

We're a small market individually, we won't have priority on anything, even the Times who are backing Leave are saying "there's no rush". Also, any bargaining is still almost certainly going to require freedom of movement of people and labour, as is the case for Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. This obviously makes a mockery of any and all immigration arguments.

The whole point of being in the EU was because, individually, member states aren't particularly strong compared to some other individual nations; historically that included the USSR, but these days it's about China, the USA, and in the future India. People keep saying how we're 5th biggest, but compared to the EU and US, it's an order of magnitude smaller.

2) yup same as above these do need to be redone but surely they can be done inside the 2 year period? if a trade agreement can't be reached by then, then i can only assume its not the doomsday people say it will be... otherwise an agreement will be rushed through?

A rushed agreement will definitely be a poor one.

3) Yes how they deal with the current workers is another matter for the government to sort out. I imagine they would probably adopt a system like Australia and issue those already working here visa automatically. New comers would be the ones who need to go through the proper application process.

Australia with it's much larger immigration "problem" than the UK when scaled for size? They're really not managing it well at all. And again, Freedom of Movement and Labour is going to be the first thing the EU put on the list of requirements.

4) Scottish referendum is an interesting point. Before if they left they could not get into the EU, now if they leave they can? I imagine most of Scottish trade is within the UK? will being in the EU benefit more than being part of the UK? considering the extra fees they would have to pay when independent compared to now?

Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and most of Northern England actually benefit disproportionately well from being in the EU thanks to development funds. This is why the EU is popular in these regions. It's the Home Counties outside of London where they don't get the same returns (but instead disproportionate national investment) where people complain.

I have watched and read as much as possible, and we know what happens with staying. The speculation I refer to is in relation to what happens if the UK leaves. Neither side knows what will happen in that scenario so it is all educated guessing and scaremongering,

Well yes, it is the "mystery box" option; but then the leaders of Leave are making pledges and promises they don't have the authority to keep, nor the track record on what they're saying to keep to them were it given to them. That they're presumptive enough to assume they'll get it, is even more disconcerting when they talk in the same breath about a lack of democracy in the EU.

There are facts out there in relation to remaining for people to see if they bother to look. But the main arguments we are seeing on TV etc is all speculation. Cameron even came out with the line 'I'm not going to confuse you with facts' WTF.. We want as many facts as possible god dammit.

Well, Leave came up with the argument that the government listen too much to experts. Fucking Farage is even saying Doctors are wrong on smoking, so...

[Whiskeyjack WN]

1) the video i saw said 10 years minimum to reach a new framework agreement with the EU.

2) that could take forever, without access to the single market we may never get the trade deals we want.

4) its a real possibility i mean afterall we'd basically be hypocrites at that point anyway.

we're more likely to know what happens if we stay as, we are already in the EU atm, so, things generally carry on as they are I guess.

I'm really starting to lose steam now, Not sure what i'll do tomorrow, my facebook is dominated by pro brexit shit. its not looking good, walked up the shop earlier and someone drove past me in a Jag with a massive VOTE LEAVE covering the entire rear window. feels like most ppl want out, or there is a massive silent majority voting to stay.

Could be closet remainers like all those closet Torrie voters in the general.

I heard a good sound bite this morning that sums up what has really annoyed me about this campaign.

'Social media and the internet has has generated what has become an acceptable toxic attitude towards opinions. For some reason it is now ok to assume someone who does not agree with you is a moron and does not deserve to live'.

This sums up for me why there seems to be a real lack of proper debate throughout this whole campaign, It's all mud slinging at people because they don't like eachother's opinion. I miss debates where people constructively countered arguments not just jump to the 'you're racist i'm not listening lalala' or what politicians love doing... avoiding the question completely and jumping back to their sound bites.

it seems like free speech and different opinions pretty much make you an idiot who deserves to die nowadays

[BrintoSFJ]

I will suggest to vote for stay because whether britain leaves or stays they will still have to deal with this nuisance and i imagine that the cost of dealing with this nuisance will become even more than it is now. I say do it like John Oliver suggested :

[Heathy]

Could be closet remainers like all those closet Torrie voters in the general.

I heard a good sound bite this morning that sums up what has really annoyed me about this campaign.

'Social media and the internet has has generated what has become an acceptable toxic attitude towards opinions. For some reason it is now ok to assume someone who does not agree with you is a moron and does not deserve to live'.

This sums up for me why there seems to be a real lack of proper debate throughout this whole campaign, It's all mud slinging at people because they don't like eachother's opinion. I miss debates where people constructively countered arguments not just jump to the 'you're racist i'm not listening lalala' or what politicians love doing... avoiding the question completely and jumping back to their sound bites.

it seems like free speech and different opinions pretty much make you an idiot who deserves to die nowadays

the disingenuousness is what is annoying me, I don't think ppl realize that left to our own devises, I mean, its gunna cost more to sell goods in Europe, so that means employers are gunna have to find a way to make that loss back, and how do they usually do that, with pay cuts and job loss.

but no we'll be free to magically pull brand new industries and trade deals out our asses instantaneously.

[Slant]

Could be closet remainers like all those closet Torrie voters in the general.

I heard a good sound bite this morning that sums up what has really annoyed me about this campaign.

'Social media and the internet has has generated what has become an acceptable toxic attitude towards opinions. For some reason it is now ok to assume someone who does not agree with you is a moron and does not deserve to live'.

This sums up for me why there seems to be a real lack of proper debate throughout this whole campaign, It's all mud slinging at people because they don't like eachother's opinion. I miss debates where people constructively countered arguments not just jump to the 'you're racist i'm not listening lalala' or what politicians love doing... avoiding the question completely and jumping back to their sound bites.

it seems like free speech and different opinions pretty much make you an idiot who deserves to die nowadays

Hmm, it's not exactly true though. What the internet and social media did was not so much generate an acceptable toxic attitude towards opinions. It rather promoted the unjustified support of baseless, idiotic opinions that somehow were entitled to a serious debate. Where people used to smile sympathetically at Flat Earth, Creationism and such things, they are now somehow entitled to be taken seriously and somehow their supporters expect everyone to meet them with an actual argument instead of just laughing them out of the room.

Toxic attitude has always been present when debates got heated. This is as old as the first Greek calling another greek an ass for disagreeing with him. This new generation of bullshit topics spawned monsters like Milo and Zarkeesian or however you spell that bitches' name and somehow they get a platform and... PEOPLE LISTEN TO THEM.

[Jessicka]

Hmm, it's not exactly true though. What the internet and social media did was not so much generate an acceptable toxic attitude towards opinions. It rather promoted the unjustified support of baseless, idiotic opinions that somehow were entitled to a serious debate. Where people used to smile sympathetically at Flat Earth, Creationism and such things, they are now somehow entitled to be taken seriously and somehow their supporters expect everyone to meet them with an actual argument instead of just laughing them out of the room.

Toxic attitude has always been present when debates got heated. This is as old as the first Greek calling another greek an ass for disagreeing with him. This new generation of bullshit topics spawned monsters like Milo and Zarkeesian or however you spell that bitches' name and somehow they get a platform and... PEOPLE LISTEN TO THEM.

Conspiracy theorists! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7092806.html

[Pua]

That is not at all childish and a reason to increase voting age...

I'm 35 - what do you think the appropriate age should be?

Or are you just throwing around casual judgement because I find the whole exercise a sobering reminder of just how far in value British political discourse has plummeted?

[Slant]

I'm 35 - what do you think the appropriate age should be?

Or are you just throwing around casual judgement because I find the whole exercise a sobering reminder of just how far in value British political discourse has plummeted?

If you contemplate drawing a dick on a ballot as an expression of your protest, and thus ignore the historical significance your vote has, I would actually increase voting age to 36. But only if the prospect of you reaching an adult state of mind is likely within the next year...

[Deleted]

I'm voting leave I don't like the fact that our countries power is given to some unknowns in glass houses in Brussels etc, Give power back to the people. What's the point of electing our government if our government is governed by the Big Wigs in the EU, I was already decided from day one, but after watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0 has even further cemented my choice.
Leave for the sake of your kids and your kids kids etc, This country will be better out of the EU, Don't listen to all the scare mongering about leaving because the people doing the mongering are the very people who will benefit from remaining (IE) the greedy controlling bastards already in power. You have the likes of Richard Branson and Alan Sugar posting REMAIN! cards through my door why? Because these are the people that are already secure in life everything worked out just fine for them being in the EU they have no reason to change.

EU - shitting on and controlling the little guy.

Don't be scared of change in our situation change is a good thing, Remaining in the EU can only get worse than it already is.

[Kalis]

Give power back to the people.

Not entirely convinced we ever had it.

[Pua]

If you contemplate drawing a dick on a ballot as an expression of your protest, and thus ignore the historical significance your vote has, I would actually increase voting age to 36. But only if the prospect of you reaching an adult state of mind is likely within the next year...

This isn't a question of my reaching an adult state of mind, irrespective of your condemnation; nor is it ignorance of any historical significance that the vote may herald.

It's my complete disgust at a campaign that, very possibly, was aggravating and insulting enough to lead to an MP's assassination. It's been characterized by nasty, spiteful and dishonest diatribes from both sides, and an attempt to browbeat people into either being a traitor or a xenophobe. The British political establishment should be fucking ashamed of itself for its conduct but, sadly, lacks the requisite self-awareness to ever get there. How else would you explain a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the one blamed for the austerity experiment, appearing with the current incumbent to threaten the nation with an emergency budget?

My problem is that I'm being given the choice between two institutions:

1) A European Union that, under the lead of Wolfgang Schäuble, decided that the Greeks were not entitled to democracy, and simply overturned their democratic decision of 23 points because it didn't fit the EU neoliberal agenda.

2) A calamitous British government that's responsible for one of the biggest upward shoves of wealth in its history, while destroying national institutions such as its health service, welfare system and education programs in the process.

Perhaps if a vote of such historical significance had been treated as such by those campaigning, or if the outcome would have been slightly less revolting either way, I wouldn't be so thoroughly repelled at the notion of siding with either of them. And it's a real hammer blow to my sensibilities, because I don't believe in abstention.

As it stands, merely drawing an ejaculating penis on a ballot paper is probably better than what I'd really like to do to it in order to more accurately convey my revulsion.

If you have any more creative ideas, I'm all ears.