Frostbrand- Infuriatingly Bad in PvP

[Renedric]

Can we all discuss for a moment how much of a terrible design this talent is? At the moment in the PTR frost brand deals a minor amount of damage and enchants your weapons for 15 secs so that they slow the target by 50% per hit for 3 sec. It costs 20 maelstrom, has a 10yd range and requires a target.
This is supposed to be our replacement for frost shock. It lacks an immediate snare effect on the target. Even if it did provide with an instant snare effect, it lacks the range to be of any use at all. Even if they somehow did provide an immediate effect and range, it requires a resource which you start at 0 with. There's too many wrong things with this talent to be called an effective replacement for frostshock. Right now if you want to close a gap in pvp you must invest into either earthgrab or feral lounge, 45sec and 30sec cds respectively, something most other classes can already do with much shorter cooldowns or better snares. They should just give us frost shock back imo. Anyone have thoughts on this?

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

you have feral lunge, the flat run speed buff frostbrand and the aoe wind spell that slows, not to mention a range stun thats more useable now then it is live. there is a lot of ways to close gaps. that said i think the talent for it should be baseline in pvp as well as making it a range snare as apposed to a melee one

[Renedric]

Flat run speed is not a gap closer as you do not move any faster than 100% when snared. Aoe Stun requires 2 seconds of activation time, making it ineffective in catching running opponents. The wind spell as you call it has a melee radius range making it completely useless again. I already mentioned feral lunge and how inferior it is when compared to already baked in/non talent spells that are far superior to it. We need something with immediate effect that has some range to it. AKA Frost shock.

[Deleted]

They could improve Hailstorm;

Hailstorm
Frostbrand now has a 10 second cooldown and also enchances your weapon's damage, causing each of your weapon attacks to also deal (10% of attack power)Frost damage.
In addition, Frostbrand will be recource free, useable in Ghostwolf, and have it's range increased by 15 yards.
Using Frostbrand on a target 20 yards away or more will increase the caster's movement speed by 30% for 5 seconds, using it within 10 yards of the target will root them into place for up to 5 seconds. These two effects share a 30 second cooldown.

Frost Shock, Frozen Power and Enforced Unleash all rolled into one talent, basically.
That said, I'd rather see all of these baseline (with the exception of the damage), as we shouldn't require a talent to make an ability worthwhile.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

from what i understand feral lunge is what most people have been asking for for awhile now it might be our only gap closer but we have lots of abilities to keep us on the target, not to mention the pvp talents also have abilities that help us with that. we might not be able to get to the enemy every 3 seconds but when we are on them it will be hard for them to get us off

[Hivey]

Can we all discuss for a moment how much of a terrible design this talent is? At the moment in the PTR frost brand deals a minor amount of damage and enchants your weapons for 15 secs so that they slow the target by 50% per hit for 3 sec. It costs 20 maelstrom, has a 10yd range and requires a target.
This is supposed to be our replacement for frost shock. It lacks an immediate snare effect on the target. Even if it did provide with an instant snare effect, it lacks the range to be of any use at all. Even if they somehow did provide an immediate effect and range, it requires a resource which you start at 0 with. There's too many wrong things with this talent to be called an effective replacement for frostshock. Right now if you want to close a gap in pvp you must invest into either earthgrab or feral lounge, 45sec and 30sec cds respectively, something most other classes can already do with much shorter cooldowns or better snares. They should just give us frost shock back imo. Anyone have thoughts on this?

This really made me giggle more than it should have.

[Turtlewithnoshell]

Shaman already have tons of mobility. Spirit walk and all the ranged abilities. I don't really see it as a problem since it's not a talent. It's an ability.

[Mehrunes]

Wait, you're telling me a melee (with two gap closers, Ghost Wolf and some ranged capability, including a ranged interrupt) actually has to be someone near the target AND has to actually use an ability to apply their eternal 50% snare? The horror!

[Renedric]

This really made me giggle more than it should have.

Just caught that too lol. Great name for a gay club :x

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, I'm telling you that as an enhancement shaman you need to invest two of your limited talent options in order to make up for the lack gap closer frost shock left behind, even then its far inferior to it and the class abilities other classes already have. Also sorry to burst your biased bubble but our ranged capabilities are limited to 10yards now and frostbrand is far from infinite, which you would've actually figured out if you had bothered reading all of my post in the first place.

[LTCrystallite]

Ghost wolf artifact perk > 15 maelstrom over 2 seconds
Feral Spirit > mobile damage + 5 maelstrom a hit
Doom Winds > Death and infinite Maelstrom

Disabling Totem of your choice
Hex (unless Voodoo Totem is chosen)
Wind Shear
Purge
Ghost Wolf's reinstated "anti slow" protection
Feral Lunge

Playing around with Enhance, it's not that difficult to use Frostbrand with all the haste and Maelstrom you get. It's also better because unlike live, Enhance actually has some serious burst and reliable setups now, combine that with a team for PvP and you're good.

[Mehrunes]

Yes, I'm telling you that as an enhancement shaman you need to invest two of your limited talent options in order to make up for the lack gap closer frost shock left behind, even then its far inferior to it and the class abilities other classes already have. Also sorry to burst your biased bubble but our ranged capabilities are limited to 10yards now and frostbrand is far from infinite, which you would've actually figured out if you had bothered reading all of my post in the first place.

Two talents? Feral lounge and what? Because contrary to your OP, Frostbrand is baseline. Oh, noes, different melee specs work differently. Call the press. You're still ahead of Ret in that department. If anything, other melees are too strong. And the 10 yard abilities are because you are a melee spec. They have slightly longer range because of spec flavor. You still have 30-40 yards on some of your actual ranged abilities. Bursting any bubbles with inaccurate "woe is me" crying isn't particularly effective or impressive. And if you bothered to read the spell description of Frostbrand, after it is cast, all you need to do is attack the target. So hard. Enh is literally doomed /s And if you bothered keeping up with other class' changes, you'd know that caster mobility is lowered a bit (with the usual exception of Mages that continue to ruin the melee vs caster balance for anyone else). The sky is falling.

[Renedric]

Two talents? Feral lounge and what? Because contrary to your OP, Frostbrand is baseline. Oh, noes, different melee specs work differently. Call the press. You're still ahead of Ret in that department. If anything, other melees are too strong. And the 10 yard abilities are because you are a melee spec. They have slightly longer range because of spec flavor. You still have 30-40 yards on some of your actual ranged abilities. Bursting any bubbles with inaccurate "woe is me" crying isn't particularly effective or impressive. And if you bothered to read the spell description of Frostbrand, after it is cast, all you need to do is attack the target. So hard. Enh is literally doomed /s And if you bothered keeping up with other class' changes, you'd know that caster mobility is lowered a bit (with the usual exception of Mages that continue to ruin the melee vs caster balance for anyone else). The sky is falling.

Feral lunge and earth grab, darling. Tell me, which ranged abilities exactly? A burst talent like Ascendance? Or is it the one that increases damage of lightning bolt by 1500% if you spend 60 maelstrom- which you'll never have in the first place since it is mostly generated in close range (none of which are snares fyi, but im playing with whatever point you're trying to make here) I get the feeling you haven't even pvp'd on enhance in the PTR/legion, or even played the spec to begin with. Also thanks for making me giggle with your description of frostbrand because if you had bothered reading (again) that's exactly what my complaint regarding the ability is about. It's an ability that replaced our gap closer, but you would need to be in melee range to even use it.
I think I've done enough testing myself (honor rank 20) to come to the conclusion that it is an extremely ineffective ability for that job that it is supposed to do.

[ipaq]

Can we all discuss for a moment how much of a terrible design this talent is? At the moment in the PTR frost brand deals a minor amount of damage and enchants your weapons for 15 secs so that they slow the target by 50% per hit for 3 sec. It costs 20 maelstrom, has a 10yd range and requires a target.
This is supposed to be our replacement for frost shock. It lacks an immediate snare effect on the target. Even if it did provide with an instant snare effect, it lacks the range to be of any use at all. Even if they somehow did provide an immediate effect and range, it requires a resource which you start at 0 with. There's too many wrong things with this talent to be called an effective replacement for frostshock. Right now if you want to close a gap in pvp you must invest into either earthgrab or feral lounge, 45sec and 30sec cds respectively, something most other classes can already do with much shorter cooldowns or better snares. They should just give us frost shock back imo. Anyone have thoughts on this?

In WoW PvP do not matter. Please a real PvP game if you wish to be taken seriously.

[Renedric]

In WoW PvP do not matter. Please a real PvP game if you wish to be taken seriously.

Sorry you feel that way but I still have hope for wow pvp.

[Deleted]

Interesting post this and Thread.

Thanks for bringing it up, nice to see so many replies and knowledge

[Deleted]

Ghost wolf artifact perk > 15 maelstrom over 2 seconds
Feral Spirit > mobile damage + 5 maelstrom a hit
Doom Winds > Death and infinite Maelstrom

Disabling Totem of your choice
Hex (unless Voodoo Totem is chosen)
Wind Shear
Purge
Ghost Wolf's reinstated "anti slow" protection
Feral Lunge

Playing around with Enhance, it's not that difficult to use Frostbrand with all the haste and Maelstrom you get. It's also better because unlike live, Enhance actually has some serious burst and reliable setups now, combine that with a team for PvP and you're good.

-Artifact trait generates MS, so you can get MS for FB. However, 10y range is not that much still, and the trait doesn't enhance mobility in itself
-Feral Spirits deal low amount of damage. The MS can be used for FB, but again, 10y range is not much
-Doom Winds; unless you make it into melee range, there wont be any maelstrom or damage to make use of
- Disabling Totems all have low range
- Hex is a hard cast; suboptimal to use for gap closing because we have to move for that, and also bad having to use cc for gap closing
- Wind Shear interrupts, it doesn't do anything for mobility save for maybe interrupt a cc spell or snare/root/stun
- Purge hasn't got anything to do with mobility
- Wotlk GW snare rerpession; is this actually back in? I think I might have spotted it as an early talent option or something, but thought it was removed again. Is it really in? I'd really like to know that. Would help a lot.

Feral Lunge is good, but a talent. Assuming we end up in situations where we need one of the other talents, we're boned. Enh shouldn't be a cripple just for not picking a talent. If this were during times where we still had GoW, I'd not complain because there wasn't any non-mobility choice there, and GoW was reeeaaally strong. But taking FL for granted is wrong indeed.

FB should have increased range at the least.

[LTCrystallite]

-Artifact trait generates MS, so you can get MS for FB. However, 10y range is not that much still, and the trait doesn't enhance mobility in itself
-Feral Spirits deal low amount of damage. The MS can be used for FB, but again, 10y range is not much
-Doom Winds; unless you make it into melee range, there wont be any maelstrom or damage to make use of
- Disabling Totems all have low range
- Hex is a hard cast; suboptimal to use for gap closing because we have to move for that, and also bad having to use cc for gap closing
- Wind Shear interrupts, it doesn't do anything for mobility save for maybe interrupt a cc spell or snare/root/stun
- Purge hasn't got anything to do with mobility
- Wotlk GW snare rerpession; is this actually back in? I think I might have spotted it as an early talent option or something, but thought it was removed again. Is it really in? I'd really like to know that. Would help a lot.

Feral Lunge is good, but a talent. Assuming we end up in situations where we need one of the other talents, we're boned. Enh shouldn't be a cripple just for not picking a talent. If this were during times where we still had GoW, I'd not complain because there wasn't any non-mobility choice there, and GoW was reeeaaally strong. But taking FL for granted is wrong indeed.

FB should have increased range at the least.

I wasn't referring to gap closing alone, just how the new Frostbrand isn't all that bad. As a gap closer, Frost Shock is definitely miles better, especially with Frozen Power, but I'm pretty sure with all the classes/specs losing CC, defensives, DPS cooldowns etc that no class is supposed to be able to do everything all the time.

-A 2 second charge on capacitor totem (now Lightning Surge) that can be placed up to a 35 yard range is mountains better than it's current WoD self. It has a more accurate animation as well.
-On the current PTR, Ghost Wolf does still have the snare suppression.
-I think I read Wordup's graph on Feral Spirit being like 11-13% overall damage if you include the Doom Wolves and Alpha Wolf traits, but I'm not sure how much more dmg Doom Wolves adds so I'll just reserve judgement til I get confirmation on this.
-Less magic buffs in the game > Purge is more vital, something to abuse when you're running at a target
-Most classes and specs have less tools and are relatively more squishy than on live
-Hex is very useful for casters and I wasn't referring to it being a gap closer, just that Shaman's tool kit is relatively stronger in Legion due to the class and ability changes. It's also a 30 second cooldown now instead of a 45.
- Feral Lunge, Spirit Walk and Ghost Wolf can be enough to get within 10 yards of many of the roster. If you have a team with enough stuns, you can even go with Earthgrab Totem now that you can place it at a 35 yard range.

-I also want to point out that the alternatives to Feral Lunge are a not so reliable AoE heal that doesn't move and a sweet movement speed raid buff totem that is on a long 2 min cooldown. Feral Lunge is plenty useful, Gust of Wind is great but apparently Blizz doesn't think Enhance should have a safety net air blink on a 15 second cooldown.

These are just my observations though, and from what I've seen so far in PvP vids as well as testing a variety of classes out on the PTR. I'm not saying Frostbrand is better or enough, just that it's not the garbage that this thread may think it is in the grand scheme of things come legion.

[Stormspellz]

In WoW PvP do not matter. Please a real PvP game if you wish to be taken seriously.

funny how a large player base does participate in pvp, so it does rather matter.

[Tumble]

Shaman already have tons of mobility. Spirit walk and all the ranged abilities. I don't really see it as a problem since it's not a talent. It's an ability.

Not sure if serious or not. You realize our "ranged snare" like he said, not only has a 10 yard max, but also has a resource cost, so even if they are in the 10 yard range, which will be doubtful, and you have no maelstrom, too bad. They really should have left frost shock alone.

[Turtlewithnoshell]

Not sure if serious or not. You realize our "ranged snare" like he said, not only has a 10 yard max, but also has a resource cost, so even if they are in the 10 yard range, which will be doubtful, and you have no maelstrom, too bad. They really should have left frost shock alone.

I am serious.
I think shaman has plenty of gap closing options and it doesn't need to be improved. Idk why people have this idea that melee should have 100% uptime.