So, heroic dungeons are now pointless?

[Corb]

I've seen plenty of people say "if I can't queue for it, I won't do it" in response to the two mythic only dungeons. Heroics are for them.

Also with a weekly lockout, mythics arent as good for farming.

[Deleted]

Im having hard time understanding the need for so many difficulties. Normal = normal diff, heroic = hard, thats it, thats the way it was in tbc and cata. Theres no need for faceroll difficulty, easy, normal, then hard(cms), its an absolutely unecessary and moronic system that failed epically with raiding and now they're bringing it into dungeons.

We only need normal, hard, maybe a step above it. We sure as hell don't need four difficulties, 2 of them being a complete joke.

OT: Yes heroics will only serve as a way to get gear very early in the expansion, then will become 100% useless a la MoP/WoD.

People that say that that failed epicly in raiding, usually are the people that havent raided shit themselves, u probably dont come further than heroic raiding yet youre crying here that the system sucks

[ThunderTaco]

They are here because some players won't be handle to handle Mythic dungeon difficulty.
They are here because some players flat out refuse to make multiplayer content if they can't queue for it and have an invite.

Heroic dungeons being required for the meta wouldn't make them more relevant, people who aren't interested would make them once and then forget them and people who want to queue would keep queueing.

[Isheria]

Both of which will be available via other mediums, as well as Mythic dungeons.

So, my question is, what's the point in heroic dungeons, other than as a gearing hop?

It could reasonably be argued that they were always a gearing hop to raids, but that doesn't answer why dungeons are now a loot hurdle... To exactly the same dungeons, all over again.

Forgot to add that heroic dungeons now drop blood of sargeras like candies, got 5 from one run. You can get artifact power from other ways but heroic dungeons is still the fastest because it's spammable while the other alternative options (mythic dungeons level 1, world quests) aren't.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

People that say that that failed epicly in raiding, usually are the people that havent raided shit themselves, u probably dont come further than heroic raiding yet youre crying here that the system sucks

Your comment contradicts itself, it says i haven't raided shit, then says i've probably haven't raided past heroic which insinuates i do raid up to heroic. Just goes to show how bright a fellow you are.

I'll humor you and let you know that i indeed haven't raided past heroic(because "mythic" is 20 man only, epic fail right there), i however did raid heroic when it actually was what is known as mythic now. Still the fact that i haven't raided mythic in the current system doesn't prove in any way, shape, or form that the current system is not a failure. You know what proves that is was an utter failure? Losing more than 60% of your playerbase over an expansion.

[Nevcairiel]

You know what proves that is was an utter failure? Losing more than 60% of your playerbase over an expansion.

And thats all because of raid difficulty changes? Riiiight.
You do realize that the raid content in WoD is generally considered actually good, if not among the best. Its just the lack of anything else that made WoD what it is.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

And thats all because of raid difficulty changes? Riiiight.
You do realize that the raid content in WoD is generally considered actually good, if not among the best. Its just the lack of anything else that made WoD what it is.

If raiding in draenor is so good then how come nobody raids? Oh that's right...

[Deleted]

It's to do with Mythic+ with their attitude of everybody needs to see everything, they set for mythic not to be a brick wall, because after that lies the never ending content of mythic+, so more people should be able to finish mythic dungeons... so they will be "easier" to complete since they are no more the hardest version.

The more content blizzard adds behind a gate, the easier the gate becomes to open.

[Nevcairiel]

If raiding in draenor is so good then how come nobody raids? Oh that's right...

People quit because there was nothing to do outside of raiding, not because raiding was bad.
Even if all mythic raiders left because their precious 10m group vanished, that would account for 2% of players leaving, not 60%.

Its a logical fallacy to assume that because raiding is down raiding must be bad - its everything else that drove players away, as many don't "only raid", but prefer a game full of alternatives, which were lacking in WoD. Players that stopped playing for other reasons obviously can't raid anymore either.

Besides, plenty people still raid, or at least used to until a few months ago. We're in content draught right now, any numbers on raiding are not very representative as more and more people stop playing at the end of a draught, no matter how good or bad the content is.

[Deleted]

One of the side-effects, however, is that heroic dungeons are now essentially pointless. Because they’re nothing but a gearing hop

This was already the case for Heroics, nothing changes.

[Pua]

Because, as Cataclysm so brilliantly demonstrated, if you put together a group of random players for a piece of even moderately challenging content, they will fail hard more often than not.

That wasn’t the problem.

The problem was that there were no other pre-raid gearing options, other than queuing up for dungeons that required CC amongst a set of classes that occasionally didn’t have any.

Also with a weekly lockout, mythics arent as good for farming.

The lockout can be altered, and the gear tuned accordingly. This isn’t an immutable design hurdle, it’s an easy fix.

This was already the case for Heroics, nothing changes.

Not really. Heroic dungeons used to be a gearing hop for raids, as well as having the meta-achievement for those who wanted to deal with an intermediate difficulty. Now, they’re doing neither of those things and don’t provide anything Mythic dungeons won’t.

As for queues, that’s another issue that’s relatively easily solvable. Put them in a queue while keeping the + system out of the queue.

So far, nobody seems to be able to explain the point in heroic dungeons. @Sargnagel is possibly the closest to the mark by suggesting that it’s another drop in difficulty in order to cater to difficulty fetishism further up the line.

And that’s ultimately bad design, as proven by the huge drop in raiding participation. I’m not sure what makes anyone think doing a similar thing with dungeons will turn out differently.

[dope_danny]

"now"? what about the last two expansion?

[Deleted]

The point of Heroic Dungeons? A way to aquire gear with a higher base iLevel then on normal.

It's really all about tuning.
Mythic+ is the 5-man alternative to raiding. But Mythic sets the mechanics of the boss fights, so it's only a numbers game.
For Mythic+ to make sense there must be at least X levels that are doable to keep progression relevant.

So they can do the math on how the numbers at mythic+X need to be to make it so that mythic+(X+1) is just not doable. And then go down from there.
Which leads to mythic being quite an easy difficulty, because the numbers of the mechanics and bosses are determined by mythic+X.
If they tuned mythic to be hard and stack on-top, they would get a lot less levels and a lot less people who can do they content, which would make it quite a waste of time.

[apelsinjuice]

With titanforge you can still get upgrades from heroic dungeons, and you cant farm mythic dungeons 24/7. Heroic dungeons have not been relevant besides the dungeon achivments since wrath anyways.

[DarkTZeratul]

Until you wipe a few times learn the fights, and dont wipe ever again. Thats the way pve works in wow, thats how raiding is, thats how cata dungeons were. Having two easy difficulties makes 0 sense.

That's how it used to work before the LFG tool. That's how it should work even with it. That's the ideal.

That's not the reality.

The reality is that people wipe a few times (or even just once) and leave, and then you wait for more people, and then maybe you wipe again, and other people leave, and then you get more people and you clear a boss but then wipe on the next one, and the healer gets kicked even though it was the tank's fault that you wiped... The reality is that most people are lazy and want a quick win and don't want to waste time wiping and learning the encounters.

Shit, I remember a Normal-mode Highmaul raid I did through the group finder tool - before Blackrock Foundry opened, so it's not like it was obsolete content - where we cleared Kargath and the Butcher, wiped once on Twin Ogron, and had 80% of the group drop without a word in the span of about a minute.

[Deleted]

it's the same reason as for why mythic is not the only raid difficulty.

There are a lot of people that cannot handle mythic tuning.

[Mirishka]

What matters is that dungeons themselves stay relevant. Whether that's heroic, Mythic, etc is ultimately a moot point.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

They are like LFR.
Pointless to serious players but still can act as a stepping stone for gearing.
And with Titanforging nothing in the game is pointless, even normals.

[Deleted]

A point I made about Mythic dungeons during 6.2 was that they would cause design problems if they were a “thing” going forward. Now that the latest build is seeing “Legion Dungeon Hero” require Mythic achievements, rather than heroic, it would seem as though this is now coming to fruition.

Ultimately, the problem is that Mythic dungeons crowd out the requirement for heroic dungeons as just another piece of content to repeat once geared. When you hit max level, you’d traditionally use heroic dungeons to gear up for raids. Now, with Mythic dungeons in place from the start, you’ll hit max level, and then gear up for Mythic dungeons by running heroic dungeons… Prior to raiding (assuming you do that at all). We’re also now at the stage where another meta-achievement, largely aimed at more casual players, has been pushed to a higher difficulty for no reason.

I get the basic design concept, though.

The new Mythic+ system has been devised for players that want small-group progression, and that’s a good thing. One of the side-effects, however, is that heroic dungeons are now essentially pointless. Because they’re nothing but a gearing hop, especially with the meta-achievement now taken out, players are likely to try and avoid them altogether. Blizzard’s solution to this recently has been to put currency or some other reward into them, but that won’t apply solely to heroic dungeons – any such system would surely be applied to Mythic as well.

So why keep heroic dungeons in the game?

What are they there for if you’re simply going to skip over them as soon as you start clearing up Mythic dungeons, which will be available at launch?

Might it not have been a better idea to go for the Heroic+ system, rather than crowding pre-raid gearing options with yet another needless addition to the gear treadmill?

Answers on a postcard.

You are just stuck on a word. Who cares if its heroic, who cares if its mythic. Heroics used to have a weekly lockout in TBC, now that place in content is for mythic dungeons.

Besides, all dungeons can drop titanforged. Nothing is pointless. But great attempt at creating a thread that perpetuates ignorance and falsehoods.

[Mad_Murdock]

I also find today's change odd. Why don't they just make mythic+0 the entry level dungeon? Besides, it's very hard to enter heroics near launch because they require 810+ and that is really not growing on trees at the start of the expansion so most of the 5man hc that will be done will be entering the actual instance with a guild.

Yeah, I'm still going back to, if you want dungeons to be hard just make Heroics hard. If you want to force people to socialize, then remove Heroics queing and leave it for normal. I'm not thrilled with all this tying everything into Mythics. I know they really want to get people to "try the old school way again" but why not it happen organically. They offered Cross realm grouping and OQue was born that's organic, natural players doing their thing.

Tying more things into Mythics for one reason or another just doesn't feel right. Feels like they are just trying to force people into Mythics under the misguided notion that WoW is suddenly going to feel like Vanilla again in terms of socializing. I don't know how much it will affect me as I'll do all my runs with the guild, maybe just another means to kill off Alt play. I dunno.