Legion - Assassination Discussion

[shaunika123]

Have you compared Subterfuge Garrote + re-Garrote after Exsanguinate to using Nightstalker for buffed Ruptures? Presumably nightstalker rupture exsanguinate will be our biggest on demand burst, but I'm wondering what the effects on sustained DPS will be.

subterfuge increases garrote dmg as well

edit oh wow, somehow i read garrote instead of rupture

[Deleted]

Have you compared Subterfuge Garrote + re-Garrote after Exsanguinate to using Nightstalker for buffed Ruptures? Presumably nightstalker rupture exsanguinate will be our biggest on demand burst, but I'm wondering what the effects on sustained DPS will be.

Thanks for your suggestion. I didn't think about it, because I thought Rupture can not benefit from Nightstalker. It seems to be a slight dps increase by about 300-400dps @ 850ilvl. Maybe slightly more depending on how far I can optimize it. Though I wouldn't recommend running Nightstalker in dungeons or other occasions where multiple targets are involved.

Agonizing Poison is about 10% behind Exsanguinate. The scaling from Mastery is just too low and I hope it will never be viable in its current implementation, as playing with AP actually causes physical pain irl.

[Deleted]

Agonizing Poison is about 10% behind Exsanguinate. The scaling from Mastery is just too low and I hope it will never be viable in its current implementation, as playing with AP actually causes physical pain irl.

Made my day

Could you maybe do me a favor and explain to me how you properly use Exsanguinate in a normal Dungeon and/or Raid environment?

[Kuntantee]

I agree with this completely. I feel a bit mislead from the early reports of the expectations and direction for Assassination. It feels like a mashup between Legion Assasination and WoD Subtlety with way less depth than Subtlety.

/sigh

It was obvious from the early days of Alpha. I've made some posts months ago, warning the direction they seemed to take is not compatible with initial premise of the spec -- Poison Master -- nothing has changed since then. The ease of design and implementation is their first choice of direction rather than fantasy, just like all other things in WoW. They always prefer methods that makes their lives easier, e.g., easier to produce/design/implement, rather than designing/producing around a fantasy, or picking "better" solutions that seem more "costly" based on some criterion, such as time.

This is probably due to some constraints on time and/or budget or the tools they are using are so archaic that they can not be fully productive, which is highly unlikely.

Unfortunately, this virus-like mentality has so deeply contaminated WoW management/development team that they can't produce something that effectively triggers players to call developers "passionate" anymore.

[Deleted]

Made my day

Could you maybe do me a favor and explain to me how you properly use Exsanguinate in a normal Dungeon and/or Raid environment?

You need to trade between how frequent you use it and how much you can gain from a single use and which resources you might waste in return.

Using Exsanguinate on a high duration Rupture and Garrote will most likely make you overcap in energy -> wasting resources
If Garrote is on cooldown you will have a bit more burst dps but you don't gain any dps overall.

In general you want to use your Exsanguinate on a Rupture that has more than 20sec left. That is the timing I found to be best one(tested in simc) trading between frequency and the value of one single Exsanguinate. With this limitation Exsanguinate gets cast about every 55sec, if you raise the condition to >23sec or even higher the interval between every exsanguinate will eventually become higher as well and you might lose 1 or 2 usages per fight.

In summary, don't try to use it on a max duration Rupture/Garrote everytime. Make sure your energy is low before using it and Rupture has about 20+sec left.

[ElTioRudo]

I dont know what i am doing wrong but my aoe dps is crap compared to others like warrior fury or monk. By crap i mean like 30% of their damage.

what is your rotation with from 3-4 to +4 targets?

[ribthanwa]

spam FoK and tab rupture. if satisfying the previous, funnel envenom and kingsbane into a priority target. Also, you're not supposed to be able to, that is outlaw's job.

[Vyrze]

I dont know what i am doing wrong but my aoe dps is crap compared to others like warrior fury or monk. By crap i mean like 30% of their damage.

what is your rotation with from 3-4 to +4 targets?

Our aoe dps is just bad honestly. Like Rib said just try to tab rupture and dps the priority target. Ive just accepted that our aoe is trash tier but i do well on single target boss fights so thats good enough for me.

[shaunika123]

spam FoK and tab rupture. if satisfying the previous, funnel envenom and kingsbane into a priority target. Also, you're not supposed to be able to, that is outlaw's job.

every other pure dps class has at least 2 specs with good or at least acceptable AOE some even 3(mages) and almost every hybrid has good AOE some even on multiple specs (like shaman)

also the argument "use your other spec" doesnt really work in a world where artifacts exist.

we dont ask for AOE that's on par with outlaw, we just ask for AOE period, our AOE is literally non existant
a level 100 outlaw rogue has more aoe dps than a level 110 assa rogue.

[Eazy]

spam FoK and tab rupture. if satisfying the previous, funnel envenom and kingsbane into a priority target. Also, you're not supposed to be able to, that is outlaw's job.

Not really, they said that they want every spec to be good at everything, single-target, AoE etc.

[ElTioRudo]

spam FoK and tab rupture. if satisfying the previous, funnel envenom and kingsbane into a priority target. Also, you're not supposed to be able to, that is outlaw's job.

Seems tht i am doing ok then.

Our aoe is too bad, i also have a warrior fury, his ST damage is on par to rogue and his aoe is a lot stronger and easy than rogue's one.

[Rikhart]

Seems tht i am doing ok then.

Our aoe is too bad, i also have a warrior fury, his ST damage is on par to rogue and his aoe is a lot stronger and easy than rogue's one.

No, fury is not on par with rogue, at all. I easily beat much better geared warriors on single target as both assassination and sub.

[Gonzalez]

I made a small video showcasing the Assassination opener/rotation. I hope this is helpful to some people out there, any changes or criticisms are appreciated.

https://youtu.be/A6uQqa9t7Zs

[toolsv]

I made a small video showcasing the Assassination opener/rotation. I hope this is helpful to some people out there, any changes or criticisms are appreciated.

https://youtu.be/A6uQqa9t7Zs

The main criticism I can think of is that they should turn the target dummies in the rogue order hall around so there's some space behind them.

[Deleted]

I don't agree with you people. I think bleeds + poisons is a good class fantasy and I prefer it more so than only poisons (also, assasination with bleeds makes more sense than subtlety with bleeds)

[ymirsson]

(also, assasination with bleeds makes more sense than subtlety with bleeds)

Why do you think so?

[Rikhart]

I made a small video showcasing the Assassination opener/rotation. I hope this is helpful to some people out there, any changes or criticisms are appreciated.

https://youtu.be/A6uQqa9t7Zs

Should apply envenom before kingsbane, for the 30% poison chance, at least I´m doing that.

[minteK917]

Why do you think so?

bleeding all over the floor, not so subtle.

[kindath]

I don't agree with you people. I think bleeds + poisons is a good class fantasy and I prefer it more so than only poisons (also, assasination with bleeds makes more sense than subtlety with bleeds)

Bleeds and poisons are a fine class fantasy, especially since sub has been refocused on stealthy ninja shizzles, but the assassination mastery should change to suit it. Currently, poison damage is a fairly small portion of our overall damage, and mastery on gear is basically wasted.

Low poison damage also devalues trying to maintain good uptime on envenom. And completely eliminates the value if you're running Agonizing Poison.

Maybe a good new mastery would something like the old Venomous Wound damage, something like:
'Dealing bleed damage to a poisoned target deals an additional mastery% of the bleed's damage as poison damage.'
or the opposite, to play better with envenom -
'Dealing poison damage to a bleeding target causes the wounds to fester, causing an additional poison damage based on mastery.'
or something that actually works well with AoE, I don't know. Havoc's mastery is just %damage, ffs.

[Bullettime]

I don't agree with you people. I think bleeds + poisons is a good class fantasy and I prefer it more so than only poisons (also, assasination with bleeds makes more sense than subtlety with bleeds)

Problem right now is the current tuning is too much in favor of bleeds to where when you factor in white hits, Mutilate, and bleeds, poisons have been marginalized significantly. This also has the effect of making Mastery significantly less potent and pushing the spec away from the heavily advertised poison master theme that the talents and artifact abilities try to play up. It would be understandable for there to be an optional bleed heavy talent build through things like Hemo and Agonizing for those who like the bleed fantasy of say live Sub but the whole spec right now plays in favor of bleeds while poisons play second fiddle aside from Kingsbane.