Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Deleted]

Irrespective of complexity, which i find sub or ass neither, my main bug bear with sub atm is the clunky feel, bugs and stuff like SD gcd, no SD bar. When you add all those to boring buff maintenance(SoD/Inquisition 2.0) and resource wasting RNG it makes the spec feel as though it is fighting against itself while striving to achieve complexity and fun, but is failing at both.

[Mafic]

Nothing is hard but with every extra layer of shit the difficulty is increasing. Raiding 101. With this attitude you can just say that Botanist is easy, because all of his abilities are elementary.

SD stacks RNG is that extra layer, even fishing for True Bearing is. Watching Outlaw energy isnt, because you are GCD capped during CDs.

I don't consider RNG stacks of SD or fishing for True bearing as complexity.

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Irrespective of complexity, which i find sub or ass neither, my main bug bear with sub atm is the clunky feel, bugs and stuff like SD gcd, no SD bar. When you add all those to boring buff maintenance(SoD/Inquisition 2.0) and resource wasting RNG it makes the spec feel as though it is fighting against itself while striving to achieve complexity and fun, but is failing at both.

It is fun zipping around like a tunnel spec yes. But beyond that it lacks depth that WoD Sub has. Blizzard is banking on trinkets and legendaries to add "layers" of depth for higher end players. But trinkets and legendaries can't hide the fact that Sub is very clunky to play as it is currently presented.

It is stuck from the early Alpha version of Sub with a mish mash of the new version of beta Sub. They never fully transitioned the rest of the alpha version of Sub to match the current version which is why it makes no logical sense.

Weaponmaster is another example of RNG that doesn't really add depth and 9/10 if you ignore it you don't really lose out with a nuanced level of depth.

[defury]

Please don't post information when you have no idea what you're talking about. You are misinforming other potential rogue players.
OT : Sub and Assa are both doing quite well(despite a lot more people that play Assa), was playing Assa initially and the power that it has on cleave, on single target (exsang.) is great.
At this point in time where most people on beta are in heroic/mythic dungeons, it does perform very well. The strongest thing about Sub is Finality, as soon as you unlock that, you see the numbers skyrocketing.

I'm using raid logs for my statements which are clearly public, random heroic anecdotes don't help anyone either.

[Ninepenny]

There is a theory floating in the Beta forums, that devs can't bring back SD bar because of the coding error/conflict with the leftover of the original passive SD of the early beta. Maybe Celestalon is shy/doesn't like someone responsible for this stuff in the IT department.

That seems to be the only possible common sense explanation for the devs behavior, bar mental retardation.

Can't wait till Preach rips this spec a new one - he called subtlety a complete catastrophe back in May and not much has changed.

[Mafic]

There is a theory floating in the Beta forums, that devs can't bring back SD bar because of the coding error/conflict with the leftover of the original passive SD of the early beta. Maybe Celestalon is shy/doesn't like someone responsible for this stuff in the IT department.

That seems to be the only possible common sense explanation for the devs behavior, bar mental retardation.

Can't wait till Preach rips this spec a new one - he called subtlety a complete catastrophe back in May and not much has changed.

Preach understands what WoD Sub and WoD Combat represented. Combat allowed you to utilize cool down reduction and plan around it or even delaying of insight. Pooling energy for WoD Sub as well as being patient with CP usage during FW uptime.

Currently, Outlaw is so chaotic with cool down reduction due to the RNG nature of True Bearing that it isn't humanly possible to plan around having cool downs at important parts of a fight in PVE. Legion Sub is heavily punished for pooling energy and hard to be patient in using combo points as the combo points are so irregular.

The nuance for Legion Sub comes from utilizing Finality as someone else pointed out in the thread already. Shadow Dance RNG charges is just a bonus from my view point, but not really a layer of depth.

[Gazember]

Nope. Infexious gaming covered it recently in his video overview guides.

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RNG Shadow Dance charges =/= complexity.

I get it you think RNG game play means complexity...if that is the case then Outlaw is the most complex spec in the game right? Wrong. It is the most mind numbing spec in the game because of RNG.

Legion Sub is a cloak and dagger mongloid spec.

Want to know how to get your POV ignored? Without any contextual basis in fact (ie. logs, personal experience, etc...I give zero shits about what you heard "Infexious Gaming" thinks about it) refer to something as a "cloak and dagger mongloid (sic) spec" like some 4chan/Reddit choob. While I'm not in the Beta, I copied over to the PTR to check it out and felt that NEITHER Assassination nor Sub were particularly complex, certainly not to where one was head and/or shoulders above the other so as to be noteworthy. Likewise, I knew about the bar paging functionality (or lack thereof) going in but didnt really feel impacted by it at all. Given I dont have the artifact on the PTR, but there just isnt that much going on (in ANY DPS spec for ANY class that I've PTR tested, for that matter) that I needed the extra row of buttons. I have 3-4 buttons I hit in "normal" stance and another 2-3 I hit exclusively during SD. It wasnt even the slightest bit taxing, and made me wonder if people are just piling on because they see other people complaining. This IS the internet, after all...

[Mafic]

Want to know how to get your POV ignored? Without any contextual basis in fact (ie. logs, personal experience, etc...I give zero shits about what you heard "Infexious Gaming" thinks about it) refer to something as a "cloak and dagger mongloid (sic) spec" like some 4chan/Reddit choob. While I'm not in the Beta, I copied over to the PTR to check it out and felt that NEITHER Assassination nor Sub were particularly complex, certainly not to where one was head and/or shoulders above the other so as to be noteworthy. Likewise, I knew about the bar paging functionality (or lack thereof) going in but didnt really feel impacted by it at all. Given I dont have the artifact on the PTR, but there just isnt that much going on (in ANY DPS spec for ANY class that I've PTR tested) that I needed the extra row of buttons. I have 3-4 buttons I hit in "normal" stance and another 2-3 I hit exclusively during SD. It wasnt even the slightest bit taxing, and made me wonder if people are just piling on because they see other people complaining. This IS the internet, after all...

To be fair those of us that have played and followed the progression of the specs on alpha/beta, have known months ago in that the specs for Rogues in general are less complex than on live. On that we seem to be in agreement, because it is obvious that Legion Sub is no where close to Sub on live.

Assassination I believe has more complexity to it in Legion than live, but that is just my opinion. Some players argue that Legion Assassination has too many things to keep track off, but no one is being forced into take Hemo for example if they want less things to manage and play Legion Assassination like a WoD version.

[kalaratic]

akaari's soul is FINALLY fucking fixed. MoS stays for the duration after breaking regular stealth too!!

HOLY SHIT finality evisc properly swaps. they banged out like my entire bug thread in 1 build

[elfporn]

Flickering Shadows (Rank 1) Activating Sprint and then taking no damage and dealing no damage for three seconds will activate Vanish without triggering its cooldown.

Looks like they've made it less of a stealth cd than the tooltip lead us to believe for so long....why is this an artifact trait again?

Can someone test to see if it works with DoTs ticking on a target?

[Deleted]

Also, Shadow Focus remains at 20% and Nightstalker was heavily nerfed to 15%.

[Wow]

Also, Shadow Focus remains at 20% and Nightstalker was heavily nerfed to 15%.

It's been 15% for sometime now.

[kalaratic]

ok so akaari is still bugged, she only works for dummies and for 1 mob in the world before you need to log off to reset it. BUT seeing that beautiful soul rip in the damage meters means were making baby steps.

also she doesn't get buffed by any dmg increase like SoD or MoS and her damage doesn't appear in my combat log at all.

[Deleted]

I'm using raid logs for my statements which are clearly public, random heroic anecdotes don't help anyone either.

Clearly public? I can't seem to find any.

[Deleted]

hah, they defo couldn't be arsed to fix the sprint>vanish artifact trait when doing damage, so decided to amend the trait.

[Kalador]

hah, they defo couldn't be arsed to fix the sprint>vanish artifact trait when doing damage, so decided to amend the trait.

To be fair it's better this way. Sprint should not be a dps CD.

[Takanasi]

In the current build on PTR the AOE DPS rotation with subtlety is basically what, spam Shuriken Storm and slap single target dots or eviscs on random targets? Why did we lose our AOE finisher?

[Idea for AOE DPS]

1. Give us an AOE DOT finisher that stacks, but always does the same damage.
2. Make Eviscerate do main damage and in addition deal X% damage to all targets that have the dot and remove one stack

Would make AOE more fun as well as give it a couple of GCD's worth of ramp up time.

[Same idea for single target DPS]

Single target dot has the same effect on Evisc, just a bit stronger. So you can go for AOE dots for smaller mobs and keep the single target dot on main target and throw Eviscs at it, and it would deal extra damage on the adds as well, as long as you keep an AOE dot on them.


[About Deepening Shadows]

I think the random nature of the charge proc is frustrating more than anything else. Being able to make accurate predictions on what to do based on when the next charge will proc is much more engaging than making a calculation with X seconds worth of randomness and just hoping for the best.

[About Shadow Techniques]

Kent said it well:

I'm actually more frustrated about the RNG of Shadow Techniques than Deepening Shadows...
Very frustrating to to suddenly receive combopoints when you're about to use a CP generator and thus waste CP's.... Or just as frustrating not receiving them when you actually need them....

In my opinion just remove the whole mechanic and increase energy regeneration to compensate OR give a simple countdown timer for when the next CP will appear.

[Hobbes0773]

Legion Sub is definitely not more complex than live Sub. Not buying that argument for a second.

I think Kalador puts it nicely:

Go play it on PTR... don't waist cp, don't cap energy, DfA on CD, 100% on shadowblade and SoD, and don't cap Shadow dance procs, use 3 gcd per ShD and come back to tell us how fucking ez it is... you're full of it, new sub is hard to play perfectly, it's probably harder than it is on live, and that's without finality and all that crap...

There is a lot more to manage on beta than live. Don't assume less buttons means less complex. There is objectively more to manage. Slice and Dice now has to be used in stealth, Shadowdance has charges and RNG added to it and is harder to get maximum benefit from, CP and energy are more difficult to keep from capping etc.

And just because you don't consider the RNG to not add to the complexity, that doesn't make it true. It does, you just don't like it. There is a big difference. Having to track more things objectively adds complexity. If you want to debate the value of that complexity, or the fun of it, that is a different story altogether. You cannot keep denying it is more complex though.

So, at the end of the day, don't buy the argument all you want. I said it was "arguable" to begin with, but to say it is obviously less complex is patently absurd. Good thing facts don't predicate upon your acceptance.

[panzaghor]

Are you seriously going to argue that there has never been an AoE/cleave fight? There's a reason why no one goes Sub on AoE fights. Just because some targets have kill priorities in such fights doesn't mean it's not an AoE fight and people shouldn't be using their AoE rotations/specs. No sane guild is going to let you be Sub spec on an AoE fight.

The fact remains that it's super annoying that rogues are being forced to play specs they don't like because Blizzard likes to spread the DPS tools around instead of giving each of them their own version of what a solid DPS spec needs (good ST, good AoE, good cleave). This problem becomes even worse with the introduction of spec-based artifacts that need to be gradually unlocked. Even people who were in favor of the current rogue design (one ST spec one AoE spec) must surely see the problem now with this design philosophy and the introduction of artifacts.

Thaty said that you will be able to progress with multiple specs at the same time but those who focus on a single spec will be slightly better and as always I'm going balls deep on subtlety

[Deleted]

To be fair it's better this way. Sprint should not be a dps CD.

Agreed, it's prefectly fine now. It now basically means you get to re-enter combat in Stealth after using Sprint to run to another target or flee from some mechanic.

I could also swear that Nightstalker was at 50% before this build.

In the end, I think Deeper Stratagem + Death from Above will be the top DPS choices. It's too good of a combo to pass on.

[Deleted]

Can't vanish during shadow dance? Why? Bug?