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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by damajin View Post
    Normally I agree with you Machismo, but not here.

    You need to get away from seeing actions taken on behalf of a corporation and its' motivations as being synonymous with individual actions and their motivations. The notion of the 'corporate citizen' really fails to ever come close to balancing out against actual living human citizens and what it has shown me is that given the perogative of corporations, IE profit over all it will always seek to dominate and diminish people, their freedoms and their potential because it can permit nothing that doesn't allow for the maximum bottom line.

    In essence you have to choose: people or corporations. If you choose people then you have to jettison corporate concerns, look for smaller packages for the management and containment of the business world but ones that ultimately function in harmony with people and not against their needs and existence due to an overriding profit mandate.

    You're trying to be consistent in your application of viewpoint, which I applaud you for but there's really not much that can be said except that corporations and people are naturally out of sync with each others' goals and needs and it's only by bending one to the other that any synergy actually exists. And as everyone can easily see it is always people who are bent to corporations, not the other way around. So it's a choice of people or an artificial construct of people and that's a pretty easy decision to make, once you stop being stubborn about it and see there's potential for other ways that fulfill peoples' ambitions of getting more out of life yet also doesn't act as a rubber stamp to pursue monopoly status because lets not kid ourselves here. Corporations have no other goal but monopoly.
    By trying to dehumanize things, we justify oppression. Sure, that makes a company an easy target... because they are faceless. It's the standard tactic of anyone who wishes to take away the freedoms from someone else. However, this applies to every single business, many of which are run by a single individual.

  2. #362
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    it's because people like you are trying to keep machismo from his maximum possible freedoms. such heartless meanies.
    Yeah, i´m the asshole telling him that he´s actually underpaid. Stupid real world.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  3. #363
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Both parties willingly agreed to a contract. They both say that's what they want. Now you want to step in and tell them that it's not actually what they want, and you think you know what's best for them.
    Here is the problem though: what if you only have to choose from contracts strongly benefiting the employer? Wouldn't it be better for both parties if the contracts were limited in a way that defends the employees from the employer taking advantage of their needs, and vice versa? The employer, sadly, has an advantage in negotiation otherwise: they are rich and they don't have immediate needs to be fulfilled that depend on hiring the employee, while employee sometimes might not be able to eat without getting a job - and in this case, the employee, apparently, will agree even on horribly unfair terms, since they don't have a choice in the matter. It is pretty much a definition of oppression, is it not?
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  4. #364
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daish View Post
    nothing is stopping you from becoming a top earner
    nothing is stopping you from doing anything these other people are doing
    Nothing is STOPPING anyone...

    But numerous forces work against most people from becoming a top earner. Thanks crony conservatives!
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  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    hello anecdotal evidence.
    You asked about my experience, I told you. If you don't want anecdotal evidence, then don't ask for it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    yeah as long as it has no actual power.
    the power to oppress others is not a power I want it to have.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    hello anecdotal evidence.
    so how many stories just like his do I need to post before it doesn't become anecdotal evidence anymore?

  7. #367
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's why we have government. To protect the interests of its citizens, from abusive behaviour like this. To create fairness in an unfair world.
    Amusingly enough the government is more than fair when it comes to dealing with Wallstreet. In fact the inequality gap is so fucking huge largely because of state intervention. In that sense I agree with him yes end the nanny welfare state for private business especially the parasites that are finance. I mean we can't have big bird and a min wage but Wallstreet finance guys can get bailed out and snort coke.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #368
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Then that employee should negotiate better, or find a new job. If they agreed to a set price, then until they show otherwise, that is how much they are worth.
    And that's what they're doing, by voting for representatives who adjust the minimum wage; setting a new baseline for what anyone's labor is "worth".

    You keep trying to present that as if it's somehow unfair, but have yet to provide any argument as to why. They're wielding the one power their employers can't collude to defeat; their right to vote.

    Just as employees "need" to work, employers "need" people to work. That's why they negotiate, and come to an agreeable contract by which the employee will work, adn the employer will compensate the employee.
    Again, this is not an equal negotiation, and cannot be as long as potential employees can't straight-up refuse to work. If you want to talk about a theoretical future where we have a basic income and employment is an option you might choose, but are in no way expected or obliged to take, fine, but in the real world, what you're claiming here is just completely false. Employers have nearly all the power in negotiations at lower income levels, because unskilled laborers significantly outnumber the available positions, and those who can't find work suffer as a result, leading them them being willing to take ever-worse offers just to mitigate that hardship.

    You're making arguments that would bring us back to the world of abject, widespread poverty, people literally starving to death, and child labor.


  9. #369
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You asked about my experience, I told you. If you don't want anecdotal evidence, then don't ask for it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    the power to oppress others is not a power I want it to have.
    i never asked for your experience in the previous post to that. i presented to you a problem.
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  10. #370
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    so explain how is it fair for one to lay claim to the fruits of another's labor?
    The revenue produced by a company is the fruit of all employee's labor. There is no 'another' in this argument.


  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Here is the problem though: what if you only have to choose from contracts strongly benefiting the employer? Wouldn't it be better for both parties if the contracts were limited in a way that defends the employees from the employer taking advantage of their needs, and vice versa? The employer, sadly, has an advantage in negotiation otherwise: they are rich and they don't have immediate needs to be fulfilled that depend on hiring the employee, while employee sometimes might not be able to eat without getting a job - and in this case, the employee, apparently, will agree even on horribly unfair terms, since they don't have a choice in the matter. It is pretty much a definition of oppression, is it not?
    If that's the case, then the company is not at fault. People are responsible for their own decisions and actions. If a person is not marketable, then that's not the company's fault. Employers often do have an advantage in negotiations, because they think logically, and not with emotion. It's why consumers (who have all the real power) don't do it themselves. They are lazy and complacent. If consumers actually gave a shit, they would refuse to shop at any business that did not play every single employee a living wage. Are you willing to do that? I highly doubt it.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    That's not true either. If everyone applied them selfs in highschool, the bar for entry into college would be higher and so would requirements for scholarships. That is a silly solution which misses the point entirely.
    but not everyone does as a matter of fact to many don't and why we have a gluten of no and low skilled laborers and why that wage is low

  13. #373
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    hello anecdotal evidence. also just to humor you do go into detail about how i may duplicate this success.
    Pff, that lazy machismo, better ask him why he has a boss and doesn´t have his own company.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Which means it's not free market action. That the company isn't creating it simply means they can't be literally charged with an actual crime, but get to skate by on a technicality. It doesn't make the behaviour ethical.

    Your, more or less, standard answer when defending principles you believe in in one way or other, seems to be "if it's legal it's fine". Even when talking about resorting to pretty much unequivocally unethical behaviour...I can't think of a good example on the top of my head, but usually in regards to 'free speech-discussions'. How come you take pretty much the opposite stance now? It seems a little odd, seeing as the exact same argument, works exactly as well here - it's not illegal (while I personally detest the argument, both here and in regards to the other discussions).

  15. #375
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    so explain how is it fair for one to lay claim to the fruits of another's labor?
    Are you talking about fruits of worker's labor or owner's ownership?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  16. #376
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    so explain how is it fair for one to lay claim to the fruits of another's labor?
    Ask Wallstreet. They do it all the time. Or ask any capitalist really. They do nothing to contribute, they merely provide "permission" to use the capital I. E the means of production
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #377
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    but not everyone does as a matter of fact to many don't and why we have a gluten of no and low skilled laborers and why that wage is low
    Again, it would be the same if everyone applied them selfs. College entry and espeacially scholarships, are relative... Not static...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  18. #378
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Like I said, I have no problem with the existence of a government. I merely have a problem with restricting victimless actions.
    "Victimless actions"

    LOL

    We've been in that world, where laissez-fare economics rule, where business owners have mass fortunes and workers have... nothing but their shirts. The world of robust middle class would not exist without legislation that prevented these "victimless actions" that kept wages to pennies.

    As I said, society decided it doesn't want to live in that world. I'd be agreeable to strong unions and less government actions, but we need one or the other and conservatives continue to cry "NEITHER" like they want workers to have no rights. Unions have been neutered into nothingness by conservative actions. So guess what we have instead?
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2016-06-22 at 09:11 PM.
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  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And that's what they're doing, by voting for representatives who adjust the minimum wage; setting a new baseline for what anyone's labor is "worth".

    You keep trying to present that as if it's somehow unfair, but have yet to provide any argument as to why. They're wielding the one power their employers can't collude to defeat; their right to vote.



    Again, this is not an equal negotiation, and cannot be as long as potential employees can't straight-up refuse to work. If you want to talk about a theoretical future where we have a basic income and employment is an option you might choose, but are in no way expected or obliged to take, fine, but in the real world, what you're claiming here is just completely false. Employers have nearly all the power in negotiations at lower income levels, because unskilled laborers significantly outnumber the available positions, and those who can't find work suffer as a result, leading them them being willing to take ever-worse offers just to mitigate that hardship.

    You're making arguments that would bring us back to the world of abject, widespread poverty, people literally starving to death, and child labor.
    Once again, they are demanding an entity with a gun come to the negotiating table. You are fine with it when it benefits you, but I'm guessing you'd be the first to bitch and complain when a corporation does the same thing.

    People can straight up refuse to work. I've been offered numerous jobs, and I've turned them down. Most people are simply too lazy and complacent to continue looking for a new job. You are blaming and punishing corporations for the bad choices of individuals.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    i never asked for your experience in the previous post to that. i presented to you a problem.
    And I answered it with personal experience.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The revenue produced by a company is the fruit of all employee's labor. There is no 'another' in this argument.
    and they get compensated for that labor dictated by the market a contract between the employer and the employee if the employee doesn't like the terms of the contract then he negotiates with another for higher compensation

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