preach discouraging teamwork in raids

[Lime]

It's almost as if he specifically says it depends on the situation and if you're a low-tier raider or not.

[Lesane]

5% isn't a reason to respec *unless you're a top guild*. 15%? That's starting to get there. But face it, if a DPS can do 100k (say) and does 85K that probably won't matter to most kills in most raids. Things like moving out stuff, properly doing your rotation, etc will almost certainly swamp that difference.

If everyone has that attitude in the raid it's a shitton of DPS lost. It's just like a job, you are expected to show up on time even if you don't do that much less work if you show up 30 minutes late. It's about the principle. By playing a suboptimal spec you are wasting everyone's time. Everyone in this game who has raided has had heart crushing 1% wipes, so playing a spec that's 5% worse than the best spec is not really smart.

Of course, this matters if you care about progression only. If you just want to troll and mess around in flex raids then sure, play whatever you want. If you care about progression, play the optimal spec and use the troll spec after you have the raid on farm status.

[clevin]

If everyone has that attitude in the raid it's a shitton of DPS lost. It's just like a job, you are expected to show up on time even if you don't do that much less work if you show up 30 minutes late. It's about the principle. By playing a suboptimal spec you are wasting everyone's time. Everyone in this game who has raided has had heart crushing 1% wipes, so playing a spec that's 5% worse than the best spec is not really smart.

Of course, this matters if you care about progression only. If you just want to troll and mess around in flex raids then sure, play whatever you want. If you care about progression, play the optimal spec and use the troll spec after you have the raid on farm status.

1) yes, it can be lost DPS. In general normal and Heroic are tuned around people not being among the best of the best.

2) it's not a job. You pay me and we can talk about you bossing me.

3) For the 3rd time... we're NOT TALKING about top mythic guilds. We're talking about the other 95%+ of the raids.

[Jinpachi]

To be honest, that was always my approach as a raid leader. Other than meeting the mix of tank vs dps vs heals, I was fine with what people were bringing.

Here's the thing. We'd actually help our guild members improve. We'd help them do runs to get gear. We'd talk to them about ways to do better in the game (not just in the raids). And we progressed just fine. In fact, I helped many members move up into better raiding guilds (I've always remained a step or two behind).

I remember people telling me way back in BC with even Karazhan that it couldn't be done without specifically this class or that class...yet, I was successful with every mix of class and specs that came along. I was told that everyone had to have the perfect min-max spec, but I was successful with many who didn't.

Too many people are obsessed with min-maxing everything. Too many people are obsessed with having the perfect comp for everything. This is a game...you should be enjoying it.

Exactly. This game is designed to be able to clear the content with all of the classes. The min/max mentality is killing the raid scene. It's no longer about fun, its about being first, and being efficient. Play the way you want. Play with like-minded people. Stop letting others tell you what's best for you.

[nekobaka]

It's almost as if he specifically says it depends on the situation and if you're a low-tier raider or not.

Yup and he is actually encouraging teamwork throughout the video. The video is on picking a class and factors that should be taken into consideration. If someone absolutely does not want to tank or heal then they should consider a pure DPS. At the same time if a player is interested in becoming a better player to be familiar with their other specs. Spec swapping is also more common at higher levels of play. A player should be aware of their value to the group and how their choices can affect that. What utility a class brings to their group and filling the need of that utility when necessary with Preach's one example being to pop a cooldown to save a tank. A low end guild is not going to get much benefit from min-maxing their players in terms of spec rerolling as issues are likely elsewhere.

Preach also talks about not forcing others and yourself to play a role one does not enjoy. Dont force tanks and healers to run the whole guild through mythic dungeons. It is okay and beneficial to offer to fill in the extra tank or healer for the one fight.

Looks like as usually many did not watch the video. Not sure if OP even watched the whole video or if this is just clickbait.

[Schmeebs]

If I was your raid leader and fire was out performing ice by significant numbers (more then 5%) I'd tell you to reroll if you wanted to raid.

Good thing you aren't a raid leader because there is no such thing as 'Ice' Spec.

[Tadkins]

If everyone has that attitude in the raid it's a shitton of DPS lost. It's just like a job, you are expected to show up on time even if you don't do that much less work if you show up 30 minutes late. It's about the principle. By playing a suboptimal spec you are wasting everyone's time. Everyone in this game who has raided has had heart crushing 1% wipes, so playing a spec that's 5% worse than the best spec is not really smart.

Of course, this matters if you care about progression only. If you just want to troll and mess around in flex raids then sure, play whatever you want. If you care about progression, play the optimal spec and use the troll spec after you have the raid on farm status.

At the same time, being forced to play a spec you don't like hurts morale, which leads to less productivity. A happy player will do better and show up often and on time simply because they're having fun. A miserable player will show up less and zone out more often.

[Machinelf]

OP takes an intelligent video, gets the wrong conclusion, and starts a post asking people about what they think about his wrong conclusion.

It depends what raid level we are talking about imo. If you raid normal and Heroic, you can get away with it. But as you start to progress through Mythic more min maxing, respecs and even class swaps could be more of a requirement.

Disregarding small mythic guilds with serious personnel issues and lack basic heals/tanks, or separating 2 disc priests, min maxxing class comps these days is more a tryhard regular/heroic thing. Yes, it's counterintuitive, but it's one of those things you see in raid leaders with only a limited knowledge of raiding. Getting someone to play something they don't like is a recipe for mediocrity. Fight knowledge and basic raid skills > spec.

[Deleted]

He's right, it's your sub and time, do as you wish.

Solo content? Do whatever the f*ck you want. However, if you are doing group content and keep slacking, you are wasting the sub time of every other player in the group as well.

[Niwes]

i do not realize why this should ever be a problem ? wether i know a guild havin that problems nor must you be a genius to understand 2 simple things:

1)
when we talk about anything under "late hc / early mythic", nobody never ever will care. when at this point someone is talkin about min/max, its just laughable, bc the gaps there are that large, a brainless ape with the wrong class could perform "not out of the band".

2)
above "late hc / early mythic" there are literally no raid leaders that dont understand, that if someone plays a class he dont like, you can forget it. i never met one in my whole career since 2005. but min/max and a good raid comp is more important there. so, obviously, every raid lead i ever met, did the following: they tell the members what they need, and if someone "want" reroll, then he/she rerolls. but if nothing is found, new members will be searched and existing members have to deal with, sharing their spot.

so, in the very most cases, not raid leaders or raids have any problems here. most of time the ones that have a problem, are the ones having to share or lost their spot, bc of raid comp needs another setup. and mostly these ppl just switch to another guild (which most of the time is searchin that spot for exactly the same reasons). and if the guild is in a such strong friendship that they wont let go that member, they simple piss on the min/max thing and go with a non ideal raid comp (if they are not a veeery top 5 mythic guild).

i never experienced big problems or much of a drama in that cases. in my experience this whole thematic is a no-brainer.

[RedGamer030]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA HAHA HA HA hah...

[Triggered Fridgekin]

I'm leaning more towards a Destruction Warlock in Legion than a Fire Mage on the simple fact that Destro has a much better looking Artifact. I have a Barbie complex when it comes to how much I enjoy playing a class based on how well they look.

Lookin' good carries me.

[Niwes]

Good thing you aren't a raid leader because there is no such thing as 'Ice' Spec.

i had to smile there too

[Zantos]

Sadly, the only time where you can't just Play what you want is when your spec starts to fall behind the other specs by several thousand dps. I tried to stay gladiator, but it started to fall too far behind.

I know people say it doesn't matter in heroic, but it does. Especially to smaller groups who are not mythic raid decked out from the previous raid. The smaller your group, the more it matters that players are not playing sub-optimal specs that end up being unable to kill targets in a timely manner.

Take for example Archimond. Ranged is amazing here. If survival hunter was melee for WoD, they would most assuredly be asked to go to Any ranged spec and kite the adds. Their class is best for it since they can move and dps, thus, keep aggro.

Or any fight that favors ranged over melee. A melee hunter would be asked to go ranged to make sure mechanics hit out away from the raid vs inside the melee.

Point is, to a degree, it can work. However, smaller comps don't work that well when someone is deliberately playing a spec that is more then 10k below the other specs of its class in dps. The other members would have to carry them Hard to make it work. At that point, why play? You're being a drain and making others cover for your unwillingness to simply change specs and be competitive dps wise.

[melodramocracy]

He's absolutely correct, and outside of world first pursuing types of players (of which there are actually far less than this forum would care to admit), the whole "you must play x because I say so" is irrelevant.

Also, your thread title is absurd.

[Wildpantz]

Im curious some people seem to really hate preach. Why? Also calling him a noob is not fair as he have achived more in wow then anyone here. Former world first nr 1 parsing dk in the world. Alot of people dont seem to understand he os PVE only.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

That guys is certainly doing his part at ruining this community. His video about 5 things he thinks aren't good including a statement that "tanking is too easy" makes me really worried.
The worst of it is, the casuals who love his channel are listening and spouting all this nonsense like he actually knows what hes talking about!

No clue what this thread is about though, but either way if he stopped making videos telling people what to do I'd certainly be happier.

[Supercool]

That guys is certainly doing his part at ruining this community. His video about 5 things he thinks aren't good including a statement that "tanking is too easy" makes me really worried.

It's not simply the ease, but the fact that making tanks so much more healer-dependent and reducing their agency makes tanking boring and unrewarding.

[Machinelf]

So much ad hominem. I've yet to meet a considerate, mature, intelligent WOW player who doesn't love Mike Preach. Unless you are trolling and bored, I just don't understand how you can not agree with this video. It's a no brainer.

Preach is a noob tho, why would you care about his opinions?

Not sure if trolling. But he was in Method.

- - - Updated - - -

That guys is certainly doing his part at ruining this community.

Not sure what planet you hail from, but he is one of the most positive rational WOWtubers. I just don't think you even watched it. His love for the game and time put in is readily apparent if you had.
You might be confusing him with heelsvsbabyface.

Say something coherent or go home. And here's a little secret: you don't have to agree 100% with what he says.

[Relapses]

So much ad hominem. I've yet to meet a considerate, mature, intelligent WOW player who doesn't love Mike Preach.

That's a No True Scotsman argument. I dislike his videos because I find his personality abrasive (and I can't stand his accent). I guess I'm an immature, unintelligent WoW player?