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  1. #1781
    Actually im not a returned banned poster, i very recently joined the forum.

    Now, i never knew Xelnath personaly like you did, nor have any of my ideas been used to build WoW into the kickass game it is , i was around tho and things were going good for locks, and then they werent, but thats my fault tho, your the first person ive seen talk out against Xelnath, i have seen nothing but praise for him , and like i said, i only know him from the few times ive seen him talked about on forum and the self drawn connections, not personally like you so ill just , not sure how this word goes , its something like " ill defere to your judgment" tho the defere seems wrong....hope it gets across

    Kainslife , im checking up on something Baconeggcheese said in another section were he was helpful about checking the logs, maybe we can find some affliction activity there thats perfectly fine and competativ ^^

  2. #1782
    Xelnath was a good guy. I'm not saying too much against him. What irks me is this myth that there was a Warlock golden age (it wasn't) when Xelnath ran the class (he didn't) and that he was ousted so Warlocks could be nerfed in favor of Mages/Hunters/Melee (not even close to how it happened).

    I know people build myths about the past, especially when they weren't there and are going on second or third hand accounts. Still, as someone who was there, I've got a bit of a duty to push back against those myths with a dose of the truth.

  3. #1783
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Preferably there are none, as this is aff. It should be layering on dots and melting things down with high sustained damage, not focused around heavy hitting individual spells like destro.

    Which seems to be what they're going for, which is good.



    It isn't.
    I like the idea of high sustained DoT damage. I've never played affliction much as my warlock has been almost exclusively destro, but I'm looking forward to giving it a shot in Legion. My only concern is whether or not it will end up being competitive with destro once raids and mythic+ are opened so I can take a break from the sea of green fire.

  4. #1784
    I wonder how many people who talk about being 'competitive' are actually in guilds where it even matters?

  5. #1785
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarilex View Post
    I like the idea of high sustained DoT damage. I've never played affliction much as my warlock has been almost exclusively destro, but I'm looking forward to giving it a shot in Legion. My only concern is whether or not it will end up being competitive with destro once raids and mythic+ are opened so I can take a break from the sea of green fire.
    It used to be that Afflic was the king of cleave, by being able to keep powerful DoTs on two or three targets at once, while Destro's nukes made it master of single target. Then came Mists which flipped that around. Malefic Grasp meant Afflic was suddenly restricted to single targets for serious damage, while Havoc make Destro supreme at cleave damage.

    What will Legion be like? We don't know yet. Yes, we can be sure the Wreak Havoc talent is going to ensure Destro's supremacy on two target fights, at least. But maybe Afflic will pull ahead again on three or four target council fights. And there's still a lot of uncertainty about who's better on add fights. Destro may retain the edge at snap damage on new targets, but Afflic just gets so many artifact boosts from adds dying. High uptime on Reap Souls and Wrath of Consumption shouldn't be underestimated, and maybe you'll want an Afflic Lock less for their add damage than for their high boss damage as powered by add deaths.

    I doubt we're doing to have any clear answers till we get a lot of people into the raids trying out different builds and strats. We're definitely not going to have any real answers till the numbers tuning pass is done.

  6. #1786
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    Xelnath was a good guy. I'm not saying too much against him. What irks me is this myth that there was a Warlock golden age (it wasn't) when Xelnath ran the class (he didn't) and that he was ousted so Warlocks could be nerfed in favor of Mages/Hunters/Melee (not even close to how it happened).

    I know people build myths about the past, especially when they weren't there and are going on second or third hand accounts. Still, as someone who was there, I've got a bit of a duty to push back against those myths with a dose of the truth.
    You are right, and what's even funnier is how time has distorted the community consensus of him on these boards since he left Blizzard. He was far from universally revered when he was actually communicating on these boards. There were many posters back then claiming he should be fired for ruining the class, blah blah blah.

    I wasn't one of them and respected how honest he was with us, even when telling us "no". But its equally silly these days for folks to suggest that somehow all their worries and troubles would be abated if only Xelnath came back.

    It's pretty simple: none of us are going to like every decision that gets made, regardless of who makes it. That's just the way it is and we should all move on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    What will Legion be like? We don't know yet. Yes, we can be sure the Wreak Havoc talent is going to ensure Destro's supremacy on two target fights, at least. But maybe Afflic will pull ahead again on three or four target council fights. And there's still a lot of uncertainty about who's better on add fights. Destro may retain the edge at snap damage on new targets, but Afflic just gets so many artifact boosts from adds dying. High uptime on Reap Souls and Wrath of Consumption shouldn't be underestimated, and maybe you'll want an Afflic Lock less for their add damage than for their high boss damage as powered by add deaths.
    Twist of Fate all over again. Not sure it's a great idea, but I won't be playing affliction, so others will have to find out

  7. #1787
    Hey, i never claimed i revered Xelnath , i have heard talk about, specificly that he did good for warlocks, this today with Kirroth who personaly knew him talked out against him was the first "bad" ive heard someone say about him.

    Stuff like "bla bla should be fired", hell thats a dime a dozen on anyone tbh, im gonna assume he did more good for the class by far then bad to justify why his name lives on like it does.


    In typical forum fashion this has gone of the rails, ive been looking over the logs of mythic+ , and there isent alot of locks, and most of them arent doing good, tho to be fair, there arent a fekton of logs either and it sucks searching since i cant search for aff lock only >< , but from runing some dungeons myself with feking hour long queue time.,.. and looking at these logs, Kainslife statment that "we are fine, and competativ" in 5mans makes me think of the 9gag picture with someone sitting there with hellfire and flames and death all around them going "....its fine....everything is fine"

  8. #1788
    Quote Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock View Post
    Twist of Fate all over again. Not sure it's a great idea, but I won't be playing affliction, so others will have to find out
    Twist of Fate on steroids. The Devs are definitely trying to make this whole "harvester of souls" gimmick more than just flavor for Afflic. Which is good, because the spec needed a shot of stronger definition, but it means they're breaking new mechanical ground with it. And it's very, very hard to get new things precisely balanced on the first try. Even with a Beta the sample size is too small to get an accurate evaluation. It takes the whole multi-million player base going at it and trying out every unexpected or non-obvious permutation to really see how it'll stand up to actual play.

    The question then becomes, if it's imbalanced, is it overpowered or underpowered? And are the flaws in numbers tuning the Devs can hotfix, or do they go to a deep enough level that they have to leave it in that imbalanced state for a tier or an expansion?

  9. #1789
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Preferably there are none, as this is aff. It should be layering on dots and melting things down with high sustained damage, not focused around heavy hitting individual spells like destro.

    Which seems to be what they're going for, which is good.
    I completely disagree. Affliction does need a burst spell because it is required in 80% of fights. It doesn't have to be as good as Destro with perma havoc, but at least one big hitting UA gives the spec a chance to compete.

    Look at WoD raids, you practically could not go Affliction in like 80% of boss encounters, because it had no burst, so it is a useless spec and they might as well delete it if it wont have a good burst spell.
    Last edited by Darkheart; 2016-06-22 at 08:29 PM.

  10. #1790
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkheart View Post
    I completely disagree. Affliction does need a burst spell because it is required in 80% of fights. It doesn't have to be as good as Destro with perma havoc, but at least one big hitting UA gives the spec a chance to compete.
    Havoc is not a burst spell, it's a cleave spell. Not sure why you think it relevant.

    The spec didn't need a burst spell for years to see regular play, not sure why you think that the case now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkheart View Post
    Look at WoD raids, you practically could not go Affliction in like 80% of boss encounters, because it had no burst, so it is a useless spec and they might as well delete it if it wont have a good burst spell.
    The reason aff wasn't used much this entire xpac is because they designed it to only be strong in patchwerk, which is fairly useless to progression since almost no fights are patchwerk these days.

    Even still aff saw regular usage on archimonde, zakuun, velhari, council and reaver during hfc progress.

    Thankfully legion aff is a completely different design than wod aff, and won't likely run into the problems wod aff has.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  11. #1791
    Yes, Havoc is not a burst spell, but its cleave function combined with Chaos Bolt or Shadowburn makes destro a really good spec to burst good priority adds, and in WoD you have so many boss encounters with priority adds.

    I think that it would be nice if Blizzard allowed players to play Affliction (or any other spec) for all encounters. Some of these encounters you might be really strong, and others you might be just good. That's fine. In WoD however if you played Affliction then you were gimped in 80% of encounters, and that is mainly due to lack of burst. Even in Archimonde and Reaver, if you played affliction you ignored adds or your damage on them was pathetic.

    This is why I am asking for a good burst spell. I don't want to be as OP as Destro in that scenario, but at least I can be somewhat effective. This is where I think a slightly stronger UA may possibly help in this regard.

  12. #1792
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by nerdzrool View Post
    This is my all-purpose questing/dungeon setup: http://beta.wowdb.com/talent-calculator#Cr5l

    Writhe isn't worth it for dungeons or questing since few mobs live long enough for it to get much past 10 stacks, shard return off drain soul is just too good to pass on and the damage isn't bad either and helps trigger seeds if you dont have shards. You can make a case for haunt but functionally DS is just superior in similar roles.

    Level 30 is pretty much preference, contagion currently doesn't apply to UA damage if it doesn't already have a UA ticking so I feel that reduces the advantage significantly, but a case can definitely be made for it. I find the convenience of AC too good to pass, especially since I use effigy for almost everything. Not even gonna mention the last one.

    Demon Skin and Sow are no-brainers for leveling. If you like running around watching things slowly tick away and then you can take siphon+sac. If ever want to do real aoe damage though you're gonna need Sow.

    Grimoire row... I like aoe padding in dungeons so I just use sac for leveling even though I usually have VW out anyways. When a queue pops I just sac my pet. If you want maximum quest deeps then Serv is almost certainly better.

    As said above I tend to have effigy for everything since I find the ~40% dot, shard and 100% CI increases to just be absolutely huge in any single target situation. I'm rarely shard starved questing due to DrainSoul and trying to fight ST bosses/rares without effigy is pretty miserable. Conduit definitely has it's uses, but if you have 3-4 agony's out you tend to have enough shard fuel for SoC spam regardless of whether you have conduit or not. Effigy has additional utility with sac/sow since you can drop it in an AoE pack on a priority target and get a lot more damage on said target since effigy copies 40% of each seed/sac, obviously has the disadvantage of melee range.

    I've quested a lot and done plenty of dungeons so I'm a pretty firm believer in my setup.
    Are WoWDB numbers still correct, because number wise, isn't haunt a so much better idea than Drainsoul + UA? If 3-4x agony are enough to keep spamming SoC, it seems like you don't need the extra shards if you decide to masspull while you do quests.

    How does it catch up to Haunt if mobs, as you said yourself, die quickly. It's basically a free chaosbolt worth of damage for every mob you pull while questing, isn't it?

  13. #1793
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkheart View Post
    I think that it would be nice if Blizzard allowed players to play Affliction (or any other spec) for all encounters.
    You can, you just won't do as good as a different spec in X situation that the one spec isn't strong in. Blizzard very purposefully doesn't design specs to be equal in all situations. They've repeatedly stated so over the years and legion does not look to change that.

    If you're arguing for that to change its a completely different conversation about spec design philosophy and not specifically about affliction.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  14. #1794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkol View Post
    I wonder how many people who talk about being 'competitive' are actually in guilds where it even matters?
    Many people are concerned first and foremost with being competitive against other dps classes in their raid (i.e their contribution to a boss kill), then with others of the same spec. In that regard, it ALWAYS matters.
    “I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: ‘O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.’ And God granted it.” -- Voltaire

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  15. #1795
    What's wrong with warlocks having some burst? It's not like we're going to have much higher sustained to compensate.
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  16. #1796
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Preferably there are none, as this is aff. It should be layering on dots and melting things down with high sustained damage, not focused around heavy hitting individual spells like destro.

    Which seems to be what they're going for, which is good.



    It isn't.
    As there is no official Blizzard statement on how specs are supposed to work, class design and niches are a matter of personal view. Personally, I see no problem and not out of character if Affliction kept its sustained DoT damage, with an occasional burst by UA stacking whith smart use of Compound Interest. Now there is nothing we can do that feels impactful or powerful, not as before the nerf.

  17. #1797
    I think having Affliction get a buff from add deaths is a good design mechanic.

    Fits with the death focus of the spec and gives affliction something from adds.

    I dont think Affliction should be good at everything but adds are too common to be awful at it.

    But if baconeggcheese is confident I am too. He's knowledgeable

  18. #1798
    I don't know about you guys, but after seeing other classes I think our dots are undertuned, anyone else feeling this as well ?

    I mean we have to cheese mechanics using talent combinations / artifacts to the absolute limit and still feels lackluster, I mean come on our standard dots deal noodle damage once again outside of several stacked UA, what is wrong with buffing base dot damage for a "spec fantasy" based purely around dots.
    Last edited by wholol; 2016-06-23 at 03:27 AM.

  19. #1799
    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    I don't know about you guys, but after seeing other classes I think our dots are undertuned, anyone else feeling this as well ?

    I mean we have to cheese mechanics using talent combinations / artifacts to the absolute limit and still feels lackluster, I mean come on our standard dots deal noodle damage once again outside of several stacked UA, what is wrong with buffing base dot damage for a "spec fantasy" based purely around dots.
    I agree, but somehow Blizzard believes our damage is fine.

  20. #1800
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    Are WoWDB numbers still correct, because number wise, isn't haunt a so much better idea than Drainsoul + UA? If 3-4x agony are enough to keep spamming SoC, it seems like you don't need the extra shards if you decide to masspull while you do quests.

    How does it catch up to Haunt if mobs, as you said yourself, die quickly. It's basically a free chaosbolt worth of damage for every mob you pull while questing, isn't it?
    Haunt is 600% but doesn't scale with mastery or literally anything else in the kit that isn't just a flat damage boost (mana tap, contagion, reap, all of which benefit UA equally well). UA starts at 340% and scales with mastery, 3 artifact traits (inherently unstable, perdition, compounding horror, which are some of the best traits that you'll want early on), and refunds a shard on it's own if the mob dies before it expires. It deals damage over 8s reduced by haste which isn't exactly a long time even when questing. Drain Soul also does decent damage on its own. If you're spamming SoC none of the 15 talents are going to give significant benefit anyways.

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