preach discouraging teamwork in raids

[purebalance]

hi , what do you guys make of preach saying play what you want in raids, not what your raid leader/team tell you to spec??

doesnt that mean your not team player if you cba to help out by respecing even thou you dont like it :/ ???? here the video

In Legion you don't have that luxury due to Artifacts, much less the difference in specs lately has been pretty minimal to where I laugh at people who say their class won't get taken as dps and their guild is struggling with heroic. The 1-3% difference in dps won't break a non mythic guild.

[Bonezerker]

*This is just the 2 cents from a casual Heroic raider. If you are pushing bleeding edge content, it is pretty much a given that everyone will try to play the most optimal spec. However, if you are like the other 90% of us, as long as you meet your raid's dps/hps requirements, it shouldn't matter what spec you play.

To be fair, people are assuming that if someone is playing an underperforming spec, that even if they chose to swap specs, they will be able to perform at a level that outshines their previous spec. For a number of players, this is likely true, but there are probably at least as many players that this is either not true for, or it would take quite a bit of time for them to adjust to be able to surpass their previous spec.

There are people that have issues switching from melee to ranged and vice versa. There are people who find that a super spammy spec is frustrating to them because reacting to procs distracts them from boss mechanics. I've had plenty of 1% wipes and plenty of 1st kills where there have only been 1 or 2 people left alive, and it just isn't fair to blame those wipes on someone who may be playing a suboptimal spec. If you are wiping at 1% there are multiple people making mistakes.

Ideally if someone is playing a suboptimal spec and they think they can do better with another one, they will make the choice themselves instead of being told to.

[Sylreick]

Yeah, not worth playing a game if you aren't having fun doing it. So, I'm with Preach on this.

[RoKPaNda]

Play what you enjoy playing. If your raid leader ever wants you to play something that you don't enjoy, just find a new raid. Guilds aren't worth shackling yourself to as much as they used to be, so just find one that you find tolerable.

[Bigbazz]

A lot of people are misreading the situation so hard. Preach is saying "Don't reroll healer for your guild, if you want to play your mage" or something to that effect. Just as he's also saying "you're not a frost mage, you're a mage". In other words you should be switching spec based on requirements of the fight/strategy, you shouldn't be switching class/role permanently just to help your guild when you'd rather play something else.

To be clear, he specifically mentions many times how annoyed he is at people who call themselves "X spec class" and refuse to master/utilise their class as a whole.. For example a DK who is sitting in guild nagging for a tank for a dungeon, when the DK has the tools to get it done.

[Tadkins]

Just as he's also saying "you're not a frost mage, you're a mage". In other words you should be switching spec based on requirements of the fight/strategy, you shouldn't be switching class/role permanently just to help your guild when you'd rather play something else.

But I am a frost mage. Born and raised in the icy lands of Dun Morogh, I have always felt an affinity for the power of cold and the stability and control it offers.

Fire is a messy, chaotic, unpleasant art that I will leave to the Dark Irons.

[BiggestNoob]

Not sure if trolling. But he was in Method.

For a solid 16 days? https://wowtrack.org/characters/EU/Tarren%20Mill/Preach. Show me one kill where he was in for a single pull on progression. His app was back during DS farm, and he was out long before MoP came out. He trialed having never done a single heroic boss in DS after it was on farm, needless to say he wasn't pushing progression that tier, and how often do people like that jump on board world first guilds?

[Bigbazz]

So much ad hominem. I've yet to meet a considerate, mature, intelligent WOW player who doesn't love Mike Preach. Unless you are trolling and bored, I just don't understand how you can not agree with this video. It's a no brainer.

I like Preach and have watched him on and off for years. But Preach often comes across like he has an extremely high opinion of himself and like he is the god of all raiding wisdom. Additionally a lot of people get annoyed with him because he quite often talks about things with 100% confidence while talking complete rubbish and not actually having a true understanding of what he's talking about, often missing something important or is using comparisons where his comparison is a figment of his imagination, or sometimes just outright wrong.

So while Preacher is very popular and is clearly an intelligent person, the fact that he often bites off more than he can chew (and thus gets a lot of things wrong) and also the fact that he sounds like he truly believes he is the undisputed master of WoW raiding, I'm not surprised that some people dislike him!

[Bigbamboozal]

Lookit, unless you are TRULY a world first guild, it's just blowing smoke up people's ass to demand they play a different spec/class. Sorry. If that person's spec or class seems to be 'the reason' you can't progress, you've got bigger fish to fry.

[Deleted]

Lookit, unless you are TRULY a world first guild, it's just blowing smoke up people's ass to demand they play a different spec/class. Sorry. If that person's spec or class seems to be 'the reason' you can't progress, you've got bigger fish to fry.

This exactly. Besides, if there are crazy wild discrepancies between the DPS of different specs of a class that is Blizzards fault and they need to address it with quick adjustments. Even more so now than before due to the artifact weapon system and the fact that they are supposedly focusing on the distinct "fantasies" of the specs. Frost/Arcane/Fire for example should do pretty much equally well in Single target/Cleave/AoE situations by adjusting the talents within that spec.

[Obsession]

Lookit, unless you are TRULY a world first guild, it's just blowing smoke up people's ass to demand they play a different spec/class. Sorry. If that person's spec or class seems to be 'the reason' you can't progress, you've got bigger fish to fry.

Ultimately it's up to the raid leader if they want to invite your holy priest to mythic archimonde progression... Additionally, I'm sure you've never had a sub .2% wipe, so min/maxing is only for those world first guilds.

[TheSerialSniper]

Preach has had his head in his ass for so long now. I stopped watching his content at the start of MoP.

[Tadkins]

That's a dumb statement that pretty much just says you don't know what you're talking about.

I'll just give you a very fast example. If we need great burst to kill a certain dangerous mob very fast (happens very often in HFC Mythic), and you are coming up with Frost when Arcane can push double the DPS into Nithramus, then yes, you're not helping the raid, at all.

And it's not about a single person, it's about 20. Everyone should be able to switch specs as needed and be flexible for Mythic, progression or not, or they get replaced by better players in time.

This also is true for talents and responsibilities. Sometimes you just get to do a shit job and have to use a shit talent that might decrease your DPS. Be flexible and adapt. Those who don't get replaced, because of their lack of reliability.

That should still only apply to hardcore cutting edge guilds.

What if the person's gear isn't aimed for arcane? Not everyone's swimming in gear to the point where they can swap entire sets at will.

What if they're not practiced in that other spec? You could very well end up getting less DPS out of them for making them switch.

What if they just don't enjoy playing it? That'd be bad for morale and could make them not want to be there.

The hardcore mythic guys are the ones that need to make those sacrifices. Normal/heroic/maybe beginning mythic late in a tier aren't so punishing that this sort of behavior is necessary.

[Vynny]

I took it as more of "don't play a class that you absolutely hate because if you do then there's no way you're gonna enjoy playing the game. And if you aren't enjoying a game, then why play it?" He does talk about choosing from multiple classes though and puts it more as narrowing down your choice to what your "hard no's" are or classes that you absolutely will not enjoy playing and then think about what your raid could need from there. I mean, one of his later point is "if you wanna play a caster like either a mage or a warlock, and you raid already has 4 warlocks, you should probably go with the mage." So no, he's not saying to not be a team player, but he's saying that each player has to prioritize actually enjoying playing the game before anything else.

[kary]

That should still only apply to hardcore cutting edge guilds.

What if the person's gear isn't aimed for arcane? Not everyone's swimming in gear to the point where they can swap entire sets at will.

What if they're not practiced in that other spec? You could very well end up getting less DPS out of them for making them switch.

What if they just don't enjoy playing it? That'd be bad for morale and could make them not want to be there.

The hardcore mythic guys are the ones that need to make those sacrifices. Normal/heroic/maybe beginning mythic late in a tier aren't so punishing that this sort of behavior is necessary.

Depends on the atmosphere of your guild. If you have anyone in the guild progress oriented, you'd have a hard time selling the "play what you want"

[Tadkins]

Depends on the atmosphere of your guild. If you have anyone in the guild progress oriented, you'd have a hard time selling the "play what you want"

That's fine, but those situations I listed above could still apply.

As an example, right now my mage is geared toward Frost. I spent my bonus rolls and used my bid points to get frost gear, which is currently enchanted with frost enchants. I've also been playing Frost this entire time from 10 to 100, and no other spec. Hell, I currently have two frost specs at the moment; one for PvE and one for PvP.

Ordering me to go arcane or fire could be...catastrophic. xD

[Raugnaut]

Is the guild pursuing the top 100 raiding spots? If they are, then someone who doesn't want to min-max has NO business in that guild. If they aren't, then that guild has NO business min-maxing.

[kary]

That's fine, but those situations I listed above could still apply.

As an example, right now my mage is geared toward Frost. I spent my bonus rolls and used my bid points to get frost gear, which is currently enchanted with frost enchants. I've also been playing Frost this entire time from 10 to 100, and no other spec. Hell, I currently have two frost specs at the moment; one for PvE and one for PvP.

Ordering me to go arcane or fire could be...catastrophic. xD

And if as a raid leader, we come across a boss where we need x amount of damage to not wipe, and arcane maths out to be better damage, I'd ask you to go arcane, or at least look towards going arcane moving forward.
Ball is now in your court to see if playing frost is more important than having a raid spot.

[StaeleAilar]

hi , what do you guys make of preach saying play what you want in raids, not what your raid leader/team tell you to spec??

doesnt that mean your not team player if you cba to help out by respecing even thou you dont like it :/ ???? here the video

Lol, think of it more this way. Would you rather field a team to raid each week or slowly lose half your team because YOU told them what to play? People will not stick around for long playing something they don't enjoy playing in a raid environment.

[Tadkins]

Raiding isn't always doing top dog DPS and using all your favorite tools at your preferred time. A lot of times you do lame jobs and use unfun, suboptimal talents and postpone CDs, kite some stupid mob while doing no DPS etc. when all you want is to go ham on the boss and play for warcraftlogs ranks. But being a great asset to your guild ends up being more fun and a better long term choice.

Yes, I understand that. I have no issues sacrificing a bit of DPS to do a mechanic or perform some other utility function. Winning the fight is my goal, no stroking my epeen. It's asking me to swap entire specs I have no experience playing, have no gear for, and dropping a bunch of gold to completely re-do enchants that's a bit much to ask.

And if as a raid leader, we come across a boss where we need x amount of damage to not wipe, and arcane maths out to be better damage, I'd ask you to go arcane, or at least look towards going arcane moving forward.
Ball is now in your court to see if playing frost is more important than having a raid spot.

And still, if I don't have the gear to play arcane, and have no experience playing arcane, would you still expect me to pull a miracle out of my hat?