BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Cthulhu 2020]

I was talking about those who want to leave. There is no economic benefit of leaving the EU. Sovereignity means little, when you don't have a strong enough economy to support whatever policy you are willing to make with that sovereignity.

63% of UK's exports are to EU zone countries. I wonder why the leave camp actually think that sovereignty will somehow benefit them in some way? It's like "we want more tariffs, and for as much as we hate Muslims because they're Muslims, immigration of unskilled labor keeps inflation and interest rates low, and who would want that!"

[Emerelle]

Remain plx. Ich have basically no interest in politics but EU seems to be a good thing...

[Deleted]

S&P says Brexit would prompt swift downgrade of Britain

The other two major credit agencies have stated almost identical risks.

So, if Brexit, UK

• loses sovereignty
• throws its currency under a bus (GBP/USD 1.0000 here we come!)
• creates massive uncertainty that will last a minimum of 2 years and perhaps as much as 10 years for a full Brexit (no EEA)
• gets downgraded so raising its borrowing costs at a time when barely starting to grow again
• at risk of an almost immediate recession with a realistic worst case scenario of over a 5% loss in economy and living standards in 2 years (IMF)
• cancels all 50+ trade treaties with everyone except WTO (each ONE of which takes 10 years average to negotiate normally)
• has to review all and redo much of trade law, state law, government powers, budgets, taxes, EU nationals rights, return of full border controls with Europe, risk most foreign and domestic capital investments
• immediately create major uncertainty in many high mobility sectors including higher education, manufacturing, financial services, research, technology, etc.
• create and escalate massive constitutional issues from Scottish independence to retain EU membership, risks to Northern Ireland peace process (current open border to Ireland is important)

all for ... what, exactly?

[Deleted]

S&P says Brexit would prompt swift downgrade of Britain

See if you keep thinking its about money you will never understand leave voters.

[Bollocks]

See this if you keep thinking its about money you will never understand leave votes.

No, YOU don't understand. I get the idea of recovering sovereignity seems a good idea in principle but without economic stability that sovereignity of yours means nothing.

[Hooked]

63% of UK's exports are to EU zone countries. I wonder why the leave camp actually think that sovereignty will somehow benefit them in some way? It's like "we want more tariffs, and for as much as we hate Muslims because they're Muslims, immigration of unskilled labor keeps inflation and interest rates low, and who would want that!"

Money means nothing in Zimbabwe, money is the least important part of life. People care about security first and in the EU there is no security for individual countries. The EU is basically the UN, but with a decent military and a little less communism (its close but the UN is more communist than the EU in 4 out of 5 tests).

[ati87]

S&P says Brexit would prompt swift downgrade of Britain

It's more about

dey terk er jerbs

Edit:

Oh and about those god dam others/brown people/muslims/drunks (Polish)/ Nazi's (Germans) and what's left?

[Bollocks]

63% of UK's exports are to EU zone countries. I wonder why the leave camp actually think that sovereignty will somehow benefit them in some way? It's like "we want more tariffs, and for as much as we hate Muslims because they're Muslims, immigration of unskilled labor keeps inflation and interest rates low, and who would want that!"

I never understood why such complicated issues are left to popular vote.

[Hooked]

I never understood why such complicated issues are left to popular vote.

Well because as a human on this planet we have rights as individuals to make choices.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I never understood why such complicated issues are left to popular vote.

To be fair, they're just polling the populace to see what they want. A lot of people confuse polling with actually voting, which is a lot of what America's system is as well, polling. Politicians who have the real voting power don't tend to go against the popular vote unless it's really close here, but they still get flak for it even then.

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Well because as a human on this planet we have rights as individuals to make choices.

It'd be nice if a lot more people made informed decisions instead of just "OMG MUSLIMS, BREXIT PLS"

[Deleted]

No, YOU don't understand. I get the idea of recovering sovereignity seems a good idea in principle but without economic stability that sovereignity of yours means nothing.

Well sometimes having a voice is worth more than money to people ? But if you think the uk economy wont be ok after the 5 year bumb of leaving the eu you need to research more on what will gain from leaving and what the uk has in its back pocket aka are untapped resource.

[Zoibert the Bear]

It would be nice if they vote leave. It's going to be very funny to see all of those Brits find out that they don't get free healthcare when they come to fuck around and get drunk in Spain.

And most of them will need it, I assure you, you gotta see the shit these people can do. It's amazingly retarded.

[Bollocks]

To be fair, they're just polling the populace to see what they want. A lot of people confuse polling with actually voting, which is a lot of what America's system is as well, polling. Politicians who have the real voting power don't tend to go against the popular vote unless it's really close here, but they still get flak for it even then.

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It'd be nice if a lot more people made informed decisions instead of just "OMG MUSLIMS, BREXIT PLS"

Well deep inside me I'm wishing British people decide to leave. That means the EU will send more schengen visas to other countries and hopefully mine will be among those.

It also bothers me that people that do not understand the implications of their vote or polling in these case and choose to vote based on emotions.

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Well sometimes having a voice is worth more than money to people ? But if you think the uk economy wont be ok after the 5 year bumb of leaving the eu you need to research more on what will gain from leaving and what the uk has in its back pocket aka are untapped resource.

I have indeed bothered to read more about the issue:

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit02.pdf
http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/public...comms/r116.pdf
https://www.oecd.org/eco/The-Economi...april-2016.pdf

The UK will pass a hard time if they decide to leave, its true that there might be a possibility of recovery but IMO its not worth the risk.
Also I don't think the EU is as authoritarian as they claim to be.

[Karon]

I still don't get how people can vote leave. The UKIP is pro-leave, that's the biggest and reddest red flag I've seen in quite some time.

[EzG]

Remain. I like Game of Thrones. Don't let filming be more expensive and thus lower quality!

[Hooked]

I still don't get how people can vote leave. The UKIP is pro-leave, that's the biggest and reddest red flag I've seen in quite some time.

And the people bringing in all the hordes of refugees are all voting stay, every single last one of them are voting stay.

[Vash The Stampede]

LOL

First off, UK is far from the only EU country that doesn't use the Euro..
Second, EU is only 28 of 47 countries in Europe. None of the 19 use Euro.

Thus.... The majority of European countries DOES NOT use the crap Euros... In fact, 19 of 48 use it..

Denmark will never switch.. We've voted no for it FOUR TIMES.. The politicians dare not put it up for vote again..

Didn't know that. I know why the UK still uses pounds, cause it has more value over the Euro. The krone though is one of those currencies where you need a big number to buy a pack of gum. Like the old Greek drachma. Does it hold as much value as the Euro?

[Deleted]

Well deep inside me I'm wishing British people decide to leave. That means the EU will send more schengen visas to other countries and hopefully mine will be among those.

It also bothers me that people that do not understand the implications of their vote or polling in these case and choose to vote based on emotions.

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I have indeed bothered to read more about the issue:

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit02.pdf
http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/public...comms/r116.pdf
https://www.oecd.org/eco/The-Economi...april-2016.pdf

The UK will pass a hard time if they decide to leave, its true that there might be a possibility of recovery but IMO its not worth the risk.
Also I don't think the EU is as authoritarian as they claim to be.

Firstly you linked bodies that are funded by the eu so thats not shock there going to be negative and any bank is going to say the same as there the ones that are going to loose out if there is a brexit. You should check how policies are made in the eu and who has the power and who passed them it might open your eyes how un elected people get a massive say in things. Also google ttip and how it will affect the nhs as it shorted it for you it would force the nhs to become a private body. There are plenty more but its a long day

[Mace]

You know, This is sums the situation perfectly.

• I don't trust an organization and body who makes decisions in secret on my behalf by a bunch of people I don't know who have no accountability to anyone. It is so un-democratic.
  
• When it's a population of 60 million you have to persuade to be elected, it's much harder to control than a small group of people who can do what they want, whenever they want (or whenever whoever is holding their balls or blackmailing them, threatening them wants), and you can't vote them out or change them if you're not happy about them, they basically have impunity to do what they want whenever. No thank you!
  
• It's so much harder to hoodwink and manipulate 60 million people than it is a small bunch of people (even if they think themselves elite people better and more intelligent than me) - I'm certainly not going to allow or vote to allow a small bunch of people like that I have no say in nor can influence, have so much power over me, nor should you. Nor should you trust them with THAT. (regardless of their good intentions - no man or group should have such control over you - not in this kind of world we live in, I won't trust most people further than I could throw them) At least in my governement, I have the ability to affect things more directly. And you want me to vote against affirming that? Fat chance!
  
• I don't trust a bunch of people who think they know better than me on how I should live my life, dictating everything to me on what I should do, where I am left out of the decision making process. Trust a bunch of people who are so confident they know all the answers becasue they're better than me? - reminds me of Hitler and his so called superior race where he and other elites are the only ones qualified and superior enough to make decisions for everyone.
  
• I don't have any confidence that Britain can change or influence the EU at all...even David Cameron couldn't and he's the prime minster, all this nonsense spoken by people in the Remain campaign - Vote In to change Europe from the inside seems like a delusion to me if your own prime minster with a powerful bargaining chip of a referendum threat hanging over Europe can't persuade them to change, you honestly think that once you've made a decision to stay in Europe, they will now listen to you?
  
• Every time Britain has disagreed with the EU and tried to change its mind on something it has failed, every single time, and not just for EU-wide policy, on laws and policies concerning its own borders, and Jeremy Corbyn expects me to believe that he will be able to change the EUs mind on anything it has decided is best for me?
  
• I feel like Britain's gotten a golden opportunity to come out and be independent, yet it seems a little fear about the uncertainty of the economy has people frightened? They think they can scare us into rejecting independence because we are too scared to govern ourselves, determine our own rules or actually manage our trade. So scared anything can go wrong we forget we can determine our own future and generate the innovation we need.
  
• This makes me furious, that there are people in this country that feel that Britain is unable to survive or do anything without been told what to do by Brussels. It's like losing your balls... can you imagine the US or commonwealth nations saying no, no, we don't want independence, we are scared that we can't govern ourselves or manage our trade or economy without you, please continue to decide things for us, please continue to decide everything about how we live our lives.
  
• I hear experts give their opinions, and yet people are considering them as certainty.. when did you decide that other people are more qualified to tell you what to do? That's nonsense, and a slave mentality - YOU are the best person to decide what to do. So called "experts" are being touted in front of you, but if you listen to them, it's all "maybe", "if", "likely" , "in my opinion" - they don't know anything for sure. These are the scaredy cats that are so afraid of what other people think than what they actually can do themselves, and you want to trust them?
  
• The same experts who were telling you no economic crash was coming in 2008, and they ridiculed the few who told you it was.. experts get it wrong, and sometimes a whole bunch of them do. They can't tell the future to one iota of accuracy, the only future they can determine is the one that you allow them too, if you allow yourself to be dictated by their agenda.. trust yourself. Listen to the arguments, make up YOUR own mind, have the facts about you.
  
• It's a lie that coming out of the EU means you are not European or you don't like your European brothers.. I love my European brothers, but I don't want or need to be a part of such a secret body like the EU to prove that. I don't need to surrender and cede more powers to Brussels or Strassbourg for that to happen.
  
• I don't believe for a second that if I'm outside the EU, the companies and businesses in the EU, for which I'm one of their biggest markets will all of a sudden want to stop trading.. that's such nonsense. Where will they get the money from? who will now buy their goods if they stop trading with Britain? Every business person wants more people to buy their goods, you want to tell me that if you come out of the EU, you think the companies, traders, farmers, businesses in France or Germany or Spain, Italy or Holland would want to stop selling their goods to you? or want to stop buying your goods and services? You think you need a trade agreement to make that happen? Commonsense dudes, you don't need an expert to tell you that.
  
• The EU is not doing brilliantly at all, the way it goes about things stinks, it's stifling, and it's secretive, if that's not warning bells I don't know what is, and you're being cowardly if you feel that you need to be ruled by that body in order to be prosperous or survive, and Britain should not forget it has trading partners all over the world, including the EU. The fears about the economy are just that, FEARS. It would seem that massive corporations love the EU because they are the only ones that can comply with their bazillion regulations, which suffocates small businesses who in turn have to depend on the EU instead of themselves and being innovative to survive.
  
  So when you hear people say oh small businesses need the EU, that's because the EUs rules and regulations have put them in that position, which is gravy train for you big corporation because it gets to eliminate a whole load of competition as most can't possibly keep up with everything they have to deal with to stay compliant with the EU. And when the EU determines who, how and what they can trade, well if it decides it's better to protect fishermen of Holland and Portuagl because they are less off, it can say hey Britain, you can't fish in your own waters any longer, because those fishermen (small businesses from there need to), and ofc they can't, only the bigger corporations can actually get the tech and reach to go that far away anyway, so the very "small businesses" they are supposedly helping actually sink, and the bigger cats get in, and there is nothing you can do about it. No amount of complaining you do or trying to change it will work. So you're either left high and dry or even more dependent on hand outs to keep going. That's not a good system, common sense should tell you that, I don't need an expert who's clearly got that wrong determining everything for me.. how emasculating.
  
• They say "protect" small businesses, you mean protect failed businesses by helping them continue to trade with poorer goods which stifles innovation big time. When something fails, often enough it's because it's not good enough, you have to go back and come up with better innovations, in the case where business behave corruptly to eliminate competition, this is where a government steps in and only in such cases to intervene.. but if you instead say yes to the EU, they determine and not your own government determining what and how this is dealt with. I don't need the EU to be able to regulate my own country...and it comes full back to sovereignty.
  
• I think we should decide how to run our own affairs, I totally resent a secret organization determining everything for me, trying to fill me with fear that I will not be able to do so, that I can't govern myself any longer, I can't survive without the EU, that I need the body of the EU to determine everything for me. It's just not true. This so called European pipe dream they've been talking to us about is one big failure, it doesn't work, and they're forcing us to go along regardless of whether we want to or not. Is this what you want to be a part off? Because of fear? because you'd rather listen to so called experts rather than determine things for yourself?
  
• Wait a sec, isn't the EU trying to do exactly what Hitler was trying to do? The way he planned to govern and rule the world, where he and is elite decide everything that's best for you and you have to accept it, no matter what, everything controlled where in life you can't control everything comes out of naive fear? Naive because you will be for thinking you can control everything, and fear because that's the reason you try so hard to control everything.
  
• Look, I don't need to be governed by someone else to work with them okay, I can govern myself and still work with them, it doesn't stop all of us in this world from needing each other, but we don't need to be governed by someone else to make that happen. I resent that state, whom I certainly don't trust with all that power, governing without transparency, without accountability having so much power or control over me, government is meant to guide by leave of the people, History is full of the constant catastrophe that happens when we just let other people do that without checks and balances, this is why we switched to democracy in the first place.
  
• Then we've gone around in the world, telling other countries this is how they should live their own lives, the people should choose, then we ourselves decide to give up our own sovereignty to someone we don't determine rules us.

Double standards if you ask me, wake up.

[Zoibert the Bear]

[...][*]Wait a sec, isn't the EU trying to do exactly what Hitler was trying to do? The way he planned to govern and rule the world, where he and is elite decide everything that's best for you and you have to accept it, no matter what, everything controlled where in life you can't control everything comes out of naive fear? Naive because you will be for thinking you can control everything, and fear because that's the reason you try so hard to control everything.
[...]

You lost me right there mate, no Godwin bullshit please.