Murky world of PC game key reselling exposed by indie developer

[Grosbill]

No one gives any fucks about some poster on Negogaf. I think ill take the word of devs over some guy on Neogaf thanks.

That guys word is about as good as yours kid. AKA not worth squat. He was a guy getting butt hurt because he is one of the people scamming developers out of money and got pretty much shat on in that thread for it if you actually read the entire thing instead of just trying to be cool and link a single post.

This is part of my family's business model. You're clueless as I've worked with fench companies as far back as the Ocean / Infogrammes / Team 17 days (when Ocean was publishing them in France) in the early 90s. You don't know squat, you don't understand how the market (and more importantly, the key resselling market) works and you're here listening to the rambling of some indie dev claiming 100% of their keys beeing sold on G2A (and elsewhere) were stolen.

Newsflash, the vast majority of them weren't, and here's an another newsflash for you, every single game you preorder through G2A (read, as in G2A is the seller) has been sold to them directly by the publisher. The onus is on YOU to prove that they operate a shady corporation with the sole intent to steal from.... the people who sell them the keys to the brand new releases directly.

In short, stop acting like you know fuck all about this, you don't.

[Jtbrig7390]

This is part of my family's business model. You're clueless as I've worked with fench companies as far back as the Ocean / Infogrammes / Team 17 days (when Ocean was publishing them in France) in the early 90s. You don't know squat, you don't understand how the market (and more importantly, the key resselling market) works and you're here listening to the rambling of some indie dev claiming 100% of their keys beeing sold on G2A (and elsewhere) were stolen.

Newsflash, the vast majority of them weren't, and here's an another newsflash for you, every single game you preorder through G2A (read, as in G2A is the seller) has been sold to them directly by the publisher. The onus is on YOU to prove that they operate a shady corporation with the sole intent to steal from.... the people who sell them the keys to the brand new releases directly.

In short, stop acting like you know fuck all about this, you don't.

I bet it is part of your family's business model.

Also I bet you didn't know this but I am Bill Gates

I love how you claim pre-orders though G2A come from publishers when it took people who pre-ordered Overwatch up to a week to get there key.

NO PUBLISHER sells there content on G2A.

[Tech614]

This is part of my family's business model.

Enough said.

Guy trying to support his gravy chain, with no examples of proof to back up any of his claims. Just gonna take a guys word from it, a guy who is profiting off the hard work of game studios by screwing them out of compensation.

That is, if that part is even true(which I kind of doubt).

[Jtbrig7390]

That is, if that part is even true(which I kind of doubt).

Don't worrie its not and he proved it once he said publishers sell there games on G2A. Kinda why those who pre-ordered Overwatch on G2A took up to a week if not longer to get there key.

Because that's something publishers do.....

Hes just another person trying to defend G2A, He could at lease try better. Using a Noegaf post as proof is LoL at best.

[Vankrys]

In tinyBuild's case, it attempted to sell its games from its own online shop, but it was crippled by chargebacks associated with fraudulent credit card purchases.
...
"There's no real way to know which keys leaked or not, and deactivating full batches of game keys would make a ton of fans angry, be it keys bought from official sellers or not," he says.

this is the part i don't get. There isn't a way to match a key to a credit card number that has been used to purchased it? while it sucks for them to be victim of stolen credit card and chargeback, i think they didn't set up their key distribution right.

Learning lesson maybe.

[Vespian]

Well, if it happens enough, maybe they'll finally charge proper prizes for direct retail. Ever since they started cranking PC games up to 70, I've moved to Kinguin and thus G2A and their kin. As long as I'm not directly killing baby Seals with my purchase, I couldn't give 2 fucks about some indie dev, but I do care a massive amount about being able to spend the same budget for twice the amount of games.

[Eleccybubb]

Well, if it happens enough, maybe they'll finally charge proper prizes for direct retail. Ever since they started cranking PC games up to 70, I've moved to Kinguin and thus G2A and their kin. As long as I'm not directly killing baby Seals with my purchase, I couldn't give 2 fucks about some indie dev, but I do care a massive amount about being able to spend the same budget for twice the amount of games.

This. Current direct retail prices are stupid these days. Half the time you are paying more for less and a shit ton more for DLC. Battlefront being a very prime example. Like I said eventually G2A will be gone someday but you know enjoy it while you can and all.

[Raiju]

This is the first time I've heard of G2A; they certainly sound like an unethical bunch.

I'm surprised that their lowlife customer base hasn't found a new way to abuse the G2A system, and rip them off in the same way that G2A are depriving the original developers; i.e. purchase a game key from their website, install and register using that key, then contact G2A and tell them that the key was a dud and demand the money back.

This sort of thing gets tracked. I'm not sure how advanced G2A are, but for most major marketplaces they will use a combination of available details to ban you and any future accounts from your IP/using your account if you have 'too many' defect purchases. Sure, there's always a way around it - but making it more difficult is a good enough deterrent for people who are happy to 'lie' to themselves and convince themselves buying things off a dodgy website that is known to fuck over developers/publishers is none of their business.

@Grosbill relies heavily on third party so no, they certainly do NOT get all their keys direct from publishers. For every third party sale there's no guarantee, and it's been shown time & time again by various companies banning keys from G2A for being fraudulent that they choose not to take action as it is profitable for them to turn a blind eye. Keep telling us how you're apparently in this business though. Even if G2A's personal sales are legitimate it has no relevance to this discussion as they run the entire marketplace and responsible for discouraging fraudulent activities within. Just like Amazon, just like eBay.

@Vespian just pirate your games then. It's no different.

[Eleccybubb]

Whatever you got from that thing was for less than a dollar in g2a

Oh yeah I know. The 10 keys were £2 and the premium was £2. What I meant is I still got more than I paid for in terms of value. Dishonored is £7.99 on steam atm for example and I got it for £2 so still alright value.

[Azrile]

It's not just bundles. The issues also arise through credit card fraud (steal card, buy a few hundred keys to resell knowing they'll likely be charged back by the owner of the card) or keys that "fall off the truck". It's happened with Ubisoft and Far Cry 4, which had never (and has never?) appeared in any form of bundle by that point (it was barely 2 months old).

I am in no way a fan or even use G2A. All I am saying is a significant portion of their business is legit, and is simply people selling unwanted games from bundles. Certainly this is not 100% of it, and credit card fraud is a major issue. I was just trying to express my opinion that this dev/writer was using extreme and inaccurate calculations when coming up with his figures. Like for example if his game is $2 on G2A and 1000 people buy it, but he sells it on his site for $20. He did not ´lose´ $20,000 because a huge percentage of the people who bought it for $2 were never going to buy it for $20. You can´t simply say $20 x 1000 is how much he lost.

Credit card fraud is the problem, and shutting down G2A would do nothing about that, the people who steal the credit cards will always find a way to get quick cash from cc balances.

[Vespian]

@Vespian just pirate your games then. It's no different.

Legally speaking, it's different. As far as I know I'm buying legal keys, which by the by, is still true for 90% of the keys provided. In fact, it's even true for the keys provided by G2A for this specific indie developer. It's their middleman that basically committed fraud on batches of keys. They dun fucked it up and now they should own it, but instead chose to 'expose' G2A.

I understand the frowns that the likes of G2A get, but consider this; Even if only 50% of the keys are illegal, which lies closer to 100%, this would still mean 50% of the keys are legally being sold for between 30 to 40% off the retail price in Europe or America. Since digital copies (no customs) are often sold for the exact same price as the hardcopies, there's a significant profit margin, as well as the fact that many games are sold in Euro's for the US price.

What game developers/publishers refuse to admit, is that they would sell more games through white channels, if they wouldn't ask these kinds of prices.

Concerning pirating; I have pirated most games up til the point I could actually pay for them regularly. Our laws are still more flexible. It's technically illegal, but there;s barely any enforcement. I chose to start legally buying my games, because I want to support the developers and todays platforms are reasonably reliable. The same goes for music. Because of Spotify, I now pay for my music.

If no laws were broken, there is no theft.

[Raiju]

If you are knowingly buying from someone who pirates and have reasons to suspect the item you bought is fraudulent, in most countries you're expected to report the crime (and that will involve giving up the item). You can feign ignorance, but you're not. If you actually wanted to support the developer with your purchase you wouldn't be buying it from G2A, as even in the case of it being legitimate more often than not it won't be giving any support (due to being a resell).

I'm not saying reselling is wrong in that case, it just offers no direct support.

[Vespian]

If you are knowingly buying from someone who pirates and have reasons to suspect the item you bought is fraudulent, in most countries you're expected to report the crime (and that will involve giving up the item). You can feign ignorance, but you're not. If you actually wanted to support the developer with your purchase you wouldn't be buying it from G2A, as even in the case of it being legitimate more often than not it won't be giving any support (due to being a resell).

I'm not saying reselling is wrong in that case, it just offers no direct support.

It is by the assumption, that there was a payment to the developer. I'm not holier than thou. I see a legal cheaper alternative. If it's legal, it's not illegal. If it's not illegal, it's not theft, nor fraud, nor punishable by law. As long as nothing can actually be proved of these statements, and they can't, there is no moral question either.

[Raiju]

It is by the assumption, that there was a payment to the developer. I'm not holier than thou. I see a legal cheaper alternative. If it's legal, it's not illegal. If it's not illegal, it's not theft, nor fraud, nor punishable by law. As long as nothing can actually be proved of these statements, and they can't, there is no moral question either.

If I buy a product the day it comes out for half the price of everywhere else I am under no illusion that I likely bought an illegally obtained product, regardless of where it was bought or who buy. This is particularly the case for online platforms where loss-leaders are less of a factor, especially in the case of multi-seller marketplaces.

Your comment regarding legitimate second hand was that you were supporting the developer - this is incorrect. The developer gets no support from you whether that copy was thrown, given to someone, or resold to you. I have no issue with resells but don't try to pretend that you are supporting anyone but the person reselling it if you go for that option.

[Vespian]

If I buy a product the day it comes out for half the price of everywhere else I am under no illusion that I likely bought an illegally obtained product

Your mistake. These keys are legal. Perhaps you should inform yourself, before expressing yourself.

There are no purchases of keys for which the publisher does not originally receive a payment. The issue is that often enough these sales take place with CC-Fraud. That does mean that the keys were originally sold, but with fraudulent intent. That is the issue. Most of these keys are re-sales, meaning that they have been purchased and are resold, in which case the developers have received 'a compensation'.

[Asmekiel]

But with this no matter how it turns out the devs lose money.

TIL reselling keys costs the dev money.

[Raiju]

Your mistake. These keys are legal. Perhaps you should inform yourself, before expressing yourself.

There are no purchases of keys for which the publisher does not originally receive a payment. The issue is that often enough these sales take place with CC-Fraud. That does mean that the keys were originally sold, but with fraudulent intent. That is the issue. Most of these keys are re-sales, meaning that they have been purchased and are resold, in which case the developers have received 'a compensation'.

Ok so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about - cards identified as used for credit card fraud have the transactions reversed. This is often what we mean when we say chargebacks.

This means the developer gets NO MONEY.

[Jtbrig7390]

Your mistake. These keys are legal. Perhaps you should inform yourself, before expressing yourself.

There are no purchases of keys for which the publisher does not originally receive a payment. The issue is that often enough these sales take place with CC-Fraud. That does mean that the keys were originally sold, but with fraudulent intent. That is the issue. Most of these keys are re-sales, meaning that they have been purchased and are resold, in which case the developers have received 'a compensation'.

I love how you tell others to inform themselves when its you who doesn't have a fucken clue. Do you really think devs get to keep money from stolen CC's?

Want to use G2A then fine but don't sit there and defend them when you know they are bullshit.

Just own up to the fact you support theft.

The proof has been posted in this thread many times, want to bury your head in the sand and ignore it that's on you.

Edit: More info on the recent G2A events.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...s-getting-ugly

The row between G2A and tinyBuild over PC game key reselling is getting ugly, with accusations of blackmail and ultimatums flying around.

1
TinyBuild's Punch Club is cheap as chips on G2A.
To recap: earlier this week tinyBuild claimed G2A, a popular PC key-reselling website, sold nearly half a million dollars' worth of its games - and didn't receive a penny in return.

In an email sent to Eurogamer Alex Nichiporchik, boss of Punch Club and SpeedRunners publisher tinyBuild, accused G2A of selling $450,000 worth of its games.

G2A, which acts as a retailer and an online marketplace for video game key selling, sort of like an eBay for PC games, is perhaps the most well-known website of its kind, and even sponsors streamers and game events.

G2A is popular because it offers an easy way for people to sell off keys for games they don't want, and in the process customers get a cheap price.

Nichiporchik, however, described G2A's business model as "fundamentally flawed" and said it "facilitates a black market economy". He accused G2A users of using a database of stolen credit cards to buy game keys in bulk from a bundle or third-party key reseller, then putting them up on G2A to sell them at half the retail price.

There's also the issue of chargebacks from credit card companies, which obliterated tinyBuild's own online shop.

"I'd start seeing thousands of transactions, and our payment provider would shut us down within days," Nichiporchik said. "Moments later you'd see G2A being populated by cheap keys of games we had just sold on our shop."

After tinyBuild's complaint hit the internet, G2A hit back with a bizarre ultimatum: provide us with a list of suspicious keys within three days.

G2A called on tinyBuild to provide a list of the keys considered "stolen" and thus should be taken down from the G2A Marketplace, and called the $450,000 figure into question because, it said, tinyBuild referred only to the highest price point of its games in arriving at the figure.

Here's the statement:

TinyBuild should connect back with us and provide us with the list of suspicious keys for further investigation. Thereafter, G2A will be happy to publicly release the results of the investigation of this case with tinyBuild.
G2A.COM calls for tinyBuild to provide their list of suspicious keys within three days from the date of this transmission.
It's not clear why G2A has set a three-day deadline for tinyBuild - or what it'll do if tinyBuild fails to comply.

Now, tinyBuild has responded to G2A's response in a statement titled: "Our response to G2A's statement: you have 3 days to fix this."

2
G2A guarantees a safe environment and good experience - if you fork out for G2A Shield.
In an email sent to Eurogamer, Alex Nichiporchik called G2A's statement "aggressive" and accused the company of trying to "discredit" tinyBuild.

"So _now_ they're willing to help with keys, but instead phrase in the same blackmail way - you have three days to send us keys to verify," Nichiporchik said.

"Previously it was 'we're not going to help you unless you sign up working with us'."

Nichiporchik said he refuses to provide G2A with a list of keys that may or may not be stolen because of the likelihood of creating false positives.

"The way our business works is we work with a ton of partners, and tracking down individual key batches is an insane amount of work," he said.

"Everybody knows their reputation, so why would anyone even consider giving them a list of keys to 'verify'? I believe they'd just resell those keys and make more money off of it."

He continued: "We're not really talking about solutions here, only symptoms. And the cause of everything is really that they're not verifying merchants, not acknowledging the scope of their problem, and blackmailing us into working with them (saying they'll only help us if we work with them)."

Nichiporchik said he refuses to provide G2A with a list of keys that may or may not be stolen because of the likelihood of creating false positives.

"The way our business works is we work with a ton of partners, and tracking down individual key batches is an insane amount of work," he said.

"Everybody knows their reputation, so why would anyone even consider giving them a list of keys to 'verify'? I believe they'd just resell those keys and make more money off of it."

He continued: "We're not really talking about solutions here, only symptoms. And the cause of everything is really that they're not verifying merchants, not acknowledging the scope of their problem, and blackmailing us into working with them (saying they'll only help us if we work with them)."

Nichiporchik issued G2A a three-day ultimatum of his own: provide a solution for developers and publishers to benefit from the marketplace.

"As everyone knows, there's currently no way for a company like ours to benefit from the marketplace without undercutting actual retailers," he said.

"If we have solutions to set minimum pricing, getting revenue shares, and/or flatout not allowing sales of our keys on the marketplace, the tides could turn into a positive direction for the industry as a whole."

G2A has yet to respond to tinyBuild's response to G2A's original response to tinyBuild's accusation (still with me?), and the whole row is getting increasingly bitter with no end in sight.

[draykorinee]

So because you can't offord all the games coming out devs should lose money?

Wait, are you seriously having a go at people who buy games cheap on stream? Fucking hell.

[Jtbrig7390]

Wait, are you seriously having a go at people who buy games cheap on stream? Fucking hell.

No I am had a go at a guy who justifies buying from G2A because he can't afford all games. There is a Massive difference in buying from G2A and a steam sell..

If you read what he said then you would have realized this.

He and others don't give a fuck if they hurt devs, as long as they get there game they feel entitled to.