20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Deleted]

Ehh I find spatial awareness and common sense the most valuable attribute of a mythic raider. Being able to react to these and process information quickly is not something I would call "twitch" skill.

That's because you are assuming they already have rotation competence, which is indeed a twitch skill (and one which most players don't have btw.)

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Well in Vanilla you could do most bosses with 10 skilled people, the other 30 were more of meat shields and a help if someone messed up. But yes, but i think more then 2 difficulties are only needed if you don't have dungeons content. Which they will have with legion, so it would make sense to cut the Raid back to normal and mythic.

Most players don't really want to raid though, which is a problem with this idea.

The gear upgrades are fine, they are an incentive to push yourself to get better. Just like promotions exist to make people give their best

yes, but they are also an incentive for people who have no business trying mythic. If it was purely about the challenge, those players would not be tempted.

Management takes effort, and "mastering" the mechanics of bosses and classes takes effort. So yes it's about effort.

Management is effort - for one person and mastering classes takes initial effort and is then known. Mastering mechanics of bosses most raiders don't do - they watch youtube and copy.

You are talking more about whats required to be in the race for WF etc, not the generic requirements just to beat mythic.

[Deleted]

That's because you are assuming they already have rotation competence, which is indeed a twitch skill (and one which most players don't have btw.)

WoW has quite a margin of error for reaction times. Most spells have at least 1 second cast-time and if those that can be interrupted are longer. So no reaction time is not really necessary to a degree that shooter would require. So it's not really "twitch skills", it's more like knowing where the buttons on the keyboard are. So people who can tip blind have all the needed skills for WoW.

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Most players don't really want to raid though, which is a problem with this idea.


yes, but they are also an incentive for people who have no business trying mythic. If it was purely about the challenge, those players would not be tempted.

Management is effort - for one person and mastering classes takes initial effort and is then known. Mastering mechanics of bosses most raiders don't do - they watch youtube and copy.

You are talking more about whats required to be in the race for WF etc, not the generic requirements just to beat mythic.

That's why I said: Dungeon content. It's not raiding. And if you don't like 5-man gameplay... you are wrong in an MMO.

And? To implement knowledge still takes effort. I can watch the guide on Archimonde Mythic, doesn't mean I can pull it off.

Well the general requirement for mythic is: 20 Man, a voice com, understanding of the own class and other classes for synergies, knowledge of the boss fight and the ability to pull the strategies off. Now depending on how good you are in each of these things determines how far you can go.

[Deleted]

WoW has quite a margin of error for reaction times.

Which most players still can't match.

Most spells have at least 1 second cast-time and if those that can be interrupted are longer. So no reaction time is not really necessary to a degree that shooter would require. So it's not really "twitch skills", it's more like knowing where the buttons on the keyboard are. So people who can tip blind have all the needed skills for WoW.

Yeah, again you are mistaking the people you hang around with (extremley competent gamers who have the right twitch skills etc) for average and below average players.

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That's why I said: Dungeon content. It's not raiding. And if you don't like 5-man gameplay... you are wrong in an MMO.

Wod didn't have any though.

And? To implement knowledge still takes effort. I can watch the guide on Archimonde Mythic, doesn't mean I can pull it off.

its not effort in any real sense mate. Compare it to the 8 hours everquest kills or something.

Well the general requirement for mythic is: 20 Man, a voice com, understanding of the own class and other classes for synergies, knowledge of the boss fight and the ability to pull the strategies off. Now depending on how good you are in each of these things determines how far you can go.

Yeah, so not effort then.

[Deleted]

I have to jump on the failure bandwagon myself.
People got used to 10 man and it spawned a lot of guilds that liked the tight groups. A lot of these people have been forced out of raiding, or even the game itself. It's quite apparent if you check the subscriber count. Sure, there are plenty of other things that contributed, but I'd swear on my blackened soul that a big part is from fixed 20 man raids.

We ran a semi-hardcore 10 man guild that got completely shafted come WoD and 20 man. Suddenly, we had to cancel most raids due to the lack of players. Heroic was cleared out fast enough.
We tried everything. Announcing in trade, here on MMO, wowprogress etc. We might have gotten a reply once a week or so, and most of them were not suitable for mythic raiding. Or they left, or current raiders left because we simply couldn't raid.
Our guild even moved server (after I quit myself) and still had the same problems. Why? Because even if the server had way more players, it also had way more guilds. And more successful ones. So it didn't fix anything.

I mean, it IS a big failure simply on the fact that it made it impossible to find people. Increasing raid size when population gets completely annihilated? And sticking with it through the next expansion even? Big, BIG mistake.

Plus, the amount of fights that required a particular class (which was one of the main bullet points Blizzard brought up when introducing 20 man).... how many was that? I'm sure someone can come up with something, but I can't remember any. So what's the point?

Nah, 10 man has to come back and probably will eventually when the amount of guilds drop below a certain threshhold.

[Deleted]

Which most players still can't match.


Yeah, again you are mistaking the people you hang around with (extremley competent gamers who have the right twitch skills etc) for average and below average players.

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Wod didn't have any though.


its not effort in any real sense mate. Compare it to the 8 hours everquest kills or something.


Yeah, so not effort then.

Well if most players cannot match it, they are not made for mythic... so what? There are always people who are better at a skill then others.

1 Second has NOTHING to do with "twitch skills", twitch skills require reactions in fractions of seconds. That's why an FPS or fighting games need "twitch skills", you need to react near instantly to what happens. 1+ seconds is a long as time in comparison.

Well they fixed that with Legion, hopefully. And WoD had so many flaws you cannot blame one single thing for the sub loss. The base idea of 20 man mythic is a success.

8 hour kills with easy mechanics need time and patience, nothing else. It's not effort in any sense.

Yes of course effort, do you know what effort means?

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I have to jump on the failure bandwagon myself.
People got used to 10 man and it spawned a lot of guilds that liked the tight groups. A lot of these people have been forced out of raiding, or even the game itself.

I stopped there because you are wrong. They had every raid on 3 difficulties open to them. Just because they cannot do the highest difficulty thats not meant for 10 man doesn't man they couldn't raid!

[Flower Milk]

Failure, it killed many longstanding guilds and when those fell apart, a lot of people didn't stick around to find new ones, they just quit the game because their friends did, too.

There needs to be a smaller option IMO, there is such a large gap in difficulty between Heroic and Mythic, and there are so many small groups of players who are skilled enough to do Mythic but can't find enough people to do it, but clear Heroic really quickly. I don't see how they're going to fix this in Legion by bridging this gap.

[Deleted]

Well if most players cannot match it, they are not made for mythic... so what? There are always people who are better at a skill then others.

1 Second has NOTHING to do with "twitch skills", twitch skills require reactions in fractions of seconds. That's why an FPS or fighting games need "twitch skills", you need to react near instantly to what happens. 1+ seconds is a long as time in comparison.

1 second is twitch skills once you are past 25. Sorry bud.

Well they fixed that with Legion, hopefully. And WoD had so many flaws you cannot blame one single thing for the sub loss. The base idea of 20 man mythic is a success.

8 hour kills with easy mechanics need time and patience, nothing else. It's not effort in any sense.

Yes of course effort, do you know what effort means?

Yes, it means repeated expended exertion. Effort doesn't mean skill.

Effort means time and patience and energy expended. Digging a big hole with a teaspoon is effort. Digging a hole with a JCB isn't.

I stopped there because you are wrong. They had every raid on 3 difficulties open to them. Just because they cannot do the highest difficulty thats not meant for 10 man doesn't man they couldn't raid!

The fact that the raids were not doable with 10 man did though.

Even normal was impossible on launch with just 10.

[Deleted]

1 second is twitch skills once you are past 25. Sorry bud.


Yes, it means repeated expended exertion. Effort doesn't mean skill.

Effort means time and patience and energy expended. Digging a big hole with a teaspoon is effort. Digging a hole with a JCB isn't.



The fact that the raids were not doable with 10 man did though.

Even normal was impossible on launch with just 10.

What? My fucking Grandpa can press a button fast enough for that. Holy shit, do you have a genetic disease that reduces your reaction time?`

Lifting a finger is effort if you want to be a little bitch about it, but sitting around for 8 hours doing repeating the same steps over and over is hardly what I would call effort. 8 hours with complex mechanics? Holy fuck, that would be effort! 15 minutes with complex mechanics, is more effort then 8 hours of simple mechanics.

So flex normal and heroic failed, not 20man mythic?

[Deleted]

What? My fucking Grandpa can press a button fast enough for that. Holy shit, do you have a genetic disease that reduces your reaction time?`

Yes, its called age. Ypu'll find out.

Lifting a finger is effort if you want to be a little bitch about it, but sitting around for 8 hours doing repeating the same steps over and over is hardly what I would call effort. 8 hours with complex mechanics? Holy fuck, that would be effort! 15 minutes with complex mechanics, is more effort then 8 hours of simple mechanics.

Most raiders do 2 hours 3 nights a week, love. You keep equating "mythic raider" with "in the race for world first" - it ain't so, Jo.

Additionally, repetitive, boring actions are the essence of effort. Digging a trench with a teaspoon is effort. Planning out where the trenchs are going to be dug ain't.

So flex normal and heroic failed, not 20man mythic?

They failed because of 20 man mythic.

Blizzard changed them to make it easier to make mythic groups. Pretty much everything that went wrong in WOD can be traced back to the idea that the playerbase at large would be content to have their groups smashed to fuck, all other content obliterated and replaced with semi anonymous ilvl chasing hardcore raiding with the goal of doing mythic as the only real endgame.

On its own terms, mythic was a roaring success. better tuned encounters, more stable comps, less class stacking - all great stuff. it just fucked the whole rest of the game over to get there so its hard to call it an overall victory.

[Deleted]

Yes, its called age. Ypu'll find out.


Most raiders do 2 hours 3 nights a week, love. You keep equating "mythic raider" with "in the race for world first" - it ain't so, Jo.

Additionally, repetitive, boring actions are the essence of effort. Digging a trench with a teaspoon is effort. Planning out where the trenchs are going to be dug ain't.



They failed because of 20 man mythic.

Blizzard changed them to make it easier to make mythic groups. Pretty much everything that went wrong in WOD can be traced back to the idea that the playerbase at large would be content to have their groups smashed to fuck, all other content obliterated and replaced with semi anonymous ilvl chasing hardcore raiding with the goal of doing mythic as the only real endgame.

On its own terms, mythic was a roaring success. better tuned encounters, more stable comps, less class stacking - all great stuff. it just fucked the whole rest of the game over to get there so its hard to call it an overall victory.

I'm 23 and have no such problems. If you start to loose you reaction time that fast you made should consult a doctor.

I talk about 15 minute boss fights... what about that has to do ANYTHING with world first racing? Repetitive, boring actions are the essence of why people LEAVE, because they don't have to put in effort but mindnumbing repetition.

How was mythic 20man responsible for flex raidings failure? Blizzard failed at tune flex raiding correctly, has 0 to do with mythic.

[Deleted]

hundreds of thousands arguably quit the game because of it, "huge success though"...

Millions arguably quit the game after the introduction of 10mans and easymode raiding during wotlk, "huge success though"...

[Deleted]

I'm 23 and have no such problems. If you start to loose you reaction time that fast you made should consult a doctor.

Mate, you are a good game, right? This means you already had fast reactions. And you are at the peak of your capabailities.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0094215

TLR each year past 24 your reaction times drop.

I talk about 15 minute boss fights... what about that has to do ANYTHING with world first racing? Repetitive, boring actions are the essence of why people LEAVE, because they don't have to put in effort but mindnumbing repetition.

We are just defining what effort is here. Effort is not 15 minutes of skill work. its hours of repetition.

How was mythic 20man responsible for flex raidings failure? Blizzard failed at tune flex raiding correctly, has 0 to do with mythic.

We just said this, its to do with the numbers of players you had to take. Loads of people who had stable 10 man rosters who had no intention of going further than normal or maybe heroic suddenly found themselves 5 or 6 players short to get anything done. All at the same time - because everything was set up to make mythic 20 more viable.

The usual "you had a year to prepare" stuff doesn't apply to this - because they had no idea that small group raiding has been shot in the head until they got to highmaul.

[Deleted]

Mate, you are a good game, right? This means you already had fast reactions. And you are at the peak of your capabailities.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0094215

TLR each year past 24 your reaction times drop.


We are just defining what effort is here. Effort is not 15 minutes of skill work. its hours of repetition.


We just said this, its to do with the numbers of players you had to take. Loads of people who had stable 10 man rosters who had no intention of going further than normal or maybe heroic suddenly found themselves 5 or 6 players short to get anything done. All at the same time - because everything was set up to make mythic 20 more viable.

The usual "you had a year to prepare" stuff doesn't apply to this - because they had no idea that small group raiding has been shot in the head until they got to highmaul.

yes it drops... but it's not drastic. if you are now at 800 ms reaction time, at 45 you would reach 1 second... so if you are bad know, in 20 years you will be worst... okay, but if i'm at 500ms reaction time or lower, I will probably not even reach 800ms until im over 45... so it's a non issue for people who have good reaction times. And people who don't have them already had problems with mythic.
Read your own sources before spouting BS

No it's not, effort is by definition: exertion of physical or mental power, an earnest or strenuous attempt or something done by exertion or hard work. Nothing to do with time. So if you have to deal with complex mechanics, you put in quite a lot of effort, with simple mechanics it LESS effort!

Mythic 20 man was done to tune it separately from the other difficulties, so you cannot blame them failing at tuning flex on the 20man requirement.
Blizzard failed flex raiding in WoD but NAILED Mythic, so Mythic was a huge success.

[Deleted]

yes it drops... but it's not drastic. if you are now at 800 ms reaction time, at 45 you would reach 1 second... so if you are bad know, in 20 years you will be worst... okay, but if i'm at 500ms reaction time or lower, I will probably not even reach 800ms until im over 45... so it's a non issue for people who have good reaction times. And people who don't have them already had problems with mythic.
Read your own sources before spouting BS

I did read it - and I specifically said average and below average players to begin with.

No it's not, effort is by definition: exertion of physical or mental power, an earnest or strenuous attempt or something done by exertion or hard work. Nothing to do with time. So if you have to deal with complex mechanics, you put in quite a lot of effort, with simple mechanics it LESS effort!

Nope, skill is not effort.

[
Mythic 20 man was done to tune it separately from the other difficulties, so you cannot blame them failing at tuning flex on the 20man requirement.
Blizzard failed flex raiding in WoD but NAILED Mythic, so Mythic was a huge success.

No, they deliberately tuned the other modes to require more people in order to provide feeder players to mythic. This destroyed the tight knit community guilds and forced them into a feeding frenzy with each other to acquire more raiders just to be able to raid. They didn't bother, they quit instead.

Flex failed because it was re-purposed to make mythic more viable. Therefore mythic was good on its own terms and a disaster for the rest of the game.

[Deleted]

I did read it - and I specifically said average and below average players to begin with.


Nope, skill is not effort.


No, they deliberately tuned the other modes to require more people in order to provide feeder players to mythic. This destroyed the tight knit community guilds and forced them into a feeding frenzy with each other to acquire more raiders just to be able to raid. They didn't bother, they quit instead.

Flex failed because it was re-purposed to make mythic more viable. Therefore mythic was good on its own terms and a disaster for the rest of the game.

So where is your data on the reaction time of the average player? Because without that knowledge your claims are just guesses.

I use the DEFINITION of effort and you don't accept it? And what is skill, define it for me.

Have you ANY prove of what you are claiming?

[Deleted]

So where is your data on the reaction time of the average player? Because without that knowledge your claims are just guesses.

From wow! Can the average player manage to catch interrupts etc> Can they fuck.

I use the DEFINITION of effort and you don't accept it? And what is skill, define it for me.

Skill is the ability to do things with minimal effort.

Have you ANY prove of what you are claiming?

This is gold. I post a peer reviewed science paper, you provide nothing at all and you ask for proof! Cheeky monkey!

[Deleted]

Since like 0.5% of all people do that shit, huge failire. The problem is not mythic itself, its that you have to do the fucking raids in 3-4 Difficulties before and when you reach mythic you are already fucking bored of the raid already.

[Osmeric]

Since like 0.5% of all people do that shit, huge failire. The problem is not mythic itself, its that you have to do the fucking raids in 3-4 Difficulties before and when you reach mythic you are already fucking bored of the raid already.

Mythic raiders do LFR? Mythic raiders do normal mode for more than a few weeks, if that?

[Deleted]

From wow! Can the average player manage to catch interrupts etc> Can they fuck.


Skill is the ability to do things with minimal effort.


This is gold. I post a peer reviewed science paper, you provide nothing at all and you ask for proof! Cheeky monkey!

So how many people did you play with? Around 1% of the playerbase? WoW such evidence...

Okay, so people who are highly skilled need less effort, but people who are less skilled can do the same with more effort... don't see a problem.

Your paper has 0 to do with mythic 20 man... so yes evidence that 20 man screwed over flex, where is it?

[Lilija]

Since like 0.5% of all people do that shit, huge failire. The problem is not mythic itself, its that you have to do the fucking raids in 3-4 Difficulties before and when you reach mythic you are already fucking bored of the raid already.

This argument is so baseless. Given mostly by people who didn't do Mythic or didn't raid Heroic in MoP because even back then you didn't have to do all lower difficulties but 1.