BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Noradin]

What's the main export of the UK these days?

Complaints and exceptions?

[Mace]

yep how dare the EU tell us to do things that we actually vote for as part of the EU

we don't need to be in the EU, to do the things we feel are right to do or we want to. It is clear we can do all those things outside the EU. Problems happen when we want to do things our own way, and can't - that's what freedom is, and then we have the right to vote out irresponsibly leaders and governments making change, we don't have that right to do so with the EU, the people do not.

If it's all the same to you, I'd rather we had control and made those 2466 ourselves, than need Brussels to do so, so on the 70 our people want us to do, we can also do for ourselves. If i obey all of the many laws but murder one person, you can say I did 2466 laws correctly, how dare you hold me to account for the one that was not in line out of the 2467. My point? the 1 matters, and if it is 70, that matters a whole lot.

[Slant]

So your saying having some people who are unelected by are nation having powers to make laws is fine ? and being locked in to the eu legal system that we cant change laws with out there say so ? Atleast not being part of the eu we can vote goverments out and hold the accountable can you say the same to the eu ?

The officials are elected, stop repeating that nonsense. And everyone has a law to influence laws. In fact, the UK influences laws so heavily, they agree with like 90% of them. So don't give me that shit that it's a law you don't have a say over, when it's your own fucking dream of a law after the negotiations. And if you think that you cannot vote a Government out because of the EU, or rather that the UK political system is still quite independent and sovereign and that you're not voting a Government out is BECAUSE OF YOU above all else, nothing else will ever penetrate your mind enough to gain a foothold of reasonable thought in it.

[Deleted]

Country has been on the winning side because it has been in agreement with the EUs decisions, the issue is when it is not in agreement with the EU, the 70 times that has happened 70 times it has made no difference. It's an illusion of control. The point is when you want to do something different, you don't have the freedom to do, even when it affects your own people and your nation, your industries, your border controls - that's the problem.

It's effectively saying that we can't make these decisions for ourselves, so we should let Brussles/Strasbourg decide, I say no. We can decide, and we should. I don't trust Brussels or Strasbourg, I don't trust nameless people I cannot elect, and have no control over.

I can elect my own governemnt a fraction of tehw hole thing, I don't elect anyone else or control anyone else, neither can I affect their decisions, I'm not happy and I don't think it's a good thing to trust anyone with so much power, let alone people I don't know. My government doesn't have that power, we have the power over our governement, that's not the case with the EU.. .

I say don't be afriad, don't sell out on the risk that you might struggle a little bit more for a few more years economically, that's not even a certainity, it's a big if, don't let a little change be the price of your freedom and sovreignty. This is Britain, remember the Britannia song? Britain shall never be slaves. Don't choose willingly to be one.

There is nothing that stops the UK from having a vote who to send to the EU. It's up to your country to do so if it pleases.
You don't have control over your parliament either. If labour or tory get's elected there's not much you can do against them passing laws you don't like if they get enough support for it.

If your government didn't have any control over the EU your wouldnt have special trade deals, exemptions from Euro and so forth. You can decide alot of things. Like some eastern countries have done when it comes to enforcing their borders against immigrants for instance. Everything the EU says isn't law and alot is optional.

Even if you leave you will still have to accept EU laws. There is no getting around it. Even US have to accept EU laws if they want to trade.
It's a representative democracy and it has it's flaws but saying you lack influence is just absurd.
If you want more influence as a person your should try and enforce direct democracy instead.

[Slant]

The thing you have to remember is they will struggle to see the Uk's point of view. The EU needs the UK a lot more than the UK needs the EU. And Germany needs the EU (without the EU Germany would be a shell of what it is now). The UK leaving puts the stability and even the survival of the EU at risk, So understandably the European users on here (especially the German ones) are angry at the UK for threatening the survival of something they have worked hard to build.

You can see from Slant's latest posts that he has moved from constructive argument onto anger (almost). This is understandable, but ultimately it is a selfish motivation. They are not interested in what is best for the UK but rather what is best for their own countries... which is the survival of the EU.

Whether leaving or staying is best for the UK is a moot point, what I am saying is i think the UK's interests are not the reason behind the arguments from non UK members, which is where the threats and 'how dare you' statements come from.

You still haven't told me what it is the UK is exporting... once you do that, we'll continue the discussion about how much the EU actually needs the UK.

[Mace]

we are slaves to the EU because we disagreed with 2% of the laws the EU has passed! lolol

you not getting that you don't decide right? Your politicians went along with those votes, not you, and when they didn't want to, they were powerless about it. Yeah, it doesn't make it okay. When you want don't want to go along with them you can boot them out, and if you put in people who didn't want to go along with the EU, and they voted 50% against, or 80% against, you'd still be defeated and have no choice but to listen. You are not in control, it's like salvery.

When you are forced to do something you don't want to do yeah. When you allow someone to decide everything about you, and say it's okay, when your politicians and not you vote on those issues.

You can choose slavery you know, just because you choose it doesn't mean it isn't.

[Slant]

You don't decide what decisions are made on your behalf, the EUs convoluted body does, and does so in secret. Deciding for you what's best, how exactly you should do x , y and z. In other words, they are telling you that you are not qualified or responsible enough or even sensible enough to make your own decisions, that you need an expert (the bureaucrat in Brussels) to make all these decisions for you. This is best for you.

I disagree, I say people should decide for themselves, or at the very least I don't need somebody to dictate to me every facet of my life. This is how it's a dictatorship, they decide, and I can't do anything about it. Not even my Prime Minister could do anything about the things he tried to change, which is why we are having a referendum in the first place. Certainly our government can't, which is what the EU careful weeds out, your government is effectively powerless as you cede more powers to Brussels, I say we should decide not them.

http://europa.eu/index_en.htm

In secret... sure, if "in secret" means requiring you to look up stuff you're interested in instead of, you know... just spouting ignorant shit because you really can't be arsed to inform yourself.

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Absolutely!

We are your customer, you are not ours. Ever heard that the "customer is king"? Economics not a strong point of yours obviously.

Oh, we'll sell you as much as you want. And it'll be your Government that imposes customs on every single piece of it. And you (the end consumer) will pay those customs. To your Government. It's all legit, see?

[caervek]

I don't trust nameless people I cannot elect, and have no control over.

You elect the people (MEP) who elect them. If you don't like the people who were elected, then blame the people you elected who voted for them ( or people like Nigel Farage who didn't bother to turn up to vote).

[Slant]

Nah the anger comes from the british superiority complex that you folks let us know for the last 43 years you were part of the European Union.

Thank you. Someone gets it.

[Noradin]

That's what makes the Greek situation so challenging for someone like me. The nation was not allowed to do what its people wanted, and was forced into doing the opposite because of (largely) the German Finance Minister. It hinted that the EU had fundamentally changed from what it was erstwhile designed to do, and made it largely impossible to support.

That is because what they wanted was impossible.
you can wish for pieces of the moon to build a house all you want, if you do not have the means those dreams are meaningless.

Greece wanted to spend money they didn't have and which nobody was willing to lend to them.
Did you expect the vote of the Greece people to trump the vote of the owners of the money they desired to spend?

It is the same problem the UK has now: Their people think being a "democracy" means they can dictate others what to do, they are too self absorbed to see where the rights of other democracies begin and their own end.

(Yes, I agree that privatisation is a bad idea in most cases, but then, it is still better than the version of public ownership they employed.)

[Slant]

The European Union was formed in 1992, prior to that we were all part of the EEC, a trading group that didn't interfere in each others politics or impose stupid/damaging legislation all over the place.

This is why most of the older generation are in favour of leaving, because they remember how much better Europe was before the EU was formed.

Wtf? The EC already imposed a lot of rules onto every member state. It was just more formalised and required a lot of bureaucratic shit going on. The EU is really the same, with the same underlying concepts and ideas. The whole point of the EU from Maastricht onwards was to streamline the process and make the EU more flexible, more efficient. A plan that's now somehow in rhetorics reversed into a perverted argument of "being a dictatorship".

[Whiskeyjack WN]

Nah the anger comes from the british superiority complex that you folks let us know for the last 43 years you were part of the European Union.

I'm not British

But that superiority complex is how we feel you treat us in my country, fair enough we needed a bail out but you now have complete say over us and all of our major infrastructure is owned by German companies. (which we had to sell as part of the bailout terms)

The state my country is in affects my decision, which is that I honestly believe the UK should leave and control itself. No matter what I just cannot justify to myself, is allowing another country or state to rule over your own. Call it superiority or stupidity all you want, but wanting to be in complete control of your own destiny/decision is not a crime nor something to be ashamed of.

[Northern Goblin]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...-a7096931.html

Germany are putting out all the stops to secure a remain vote now, this is critical stuff!

[Noradin]

Computer?

I think we may have found a reason you guys can do it quicker lol.

Yes, and there are very good arguments why using a computer for votes is dangerously stupid.

[Slant]

Country has been on the winning side because it has been in agreement with the EUs decisions, the issue is when it is not in agreement with the EU, the 70 times that has happened 70 times it has made no difference. It's an illusion of control. The point is when you want to do something different, you don't have the freedom to do, even when it affects your own people and your nation, your industries, your border controls - that's the problem.

It's effectively saying that we can't make these decisions for ourselves, so we should let Brussles/Strasbourg decide, I say no. We can decide, and we should. I don't trust Brussels or Strasbourg, I don't trust nameless people I cannot elect, and have no control over.

I can elect my own governemnt a fraction of tehw hole thing, I don't elect anyone else or control anyone else, neither can I affect their decisions, I'm not happy and I don't think it's a good thing to trust anyone with so much power, let alone people I don't know. My government doesn't have that power, we have the power over our governement, that's not the case with the EU.. .

I say don't be afriad, don't sell out on the risk that you might struggle a little bit more for a few more years economically, that's not even a certainity, it's a big if, don't let a little change be the price of your freedom and sovreignty. This is Britain, remember the Britannia song? Britain shall never be slaves. Don't choose willingly to be one.

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I see, and which point is that?

I read that and instantly a mental scene played in my head. You driving a car and saying "I want to turn left!" - I say "But there's a wall... we should really not turn left!" - You: "But I want to turn left, don't impose on me, it's my decision I am a free human being!" - Me "Ok, that may be the case, but... there really is a wall, we should reconsider!" and then we have a vote, France in the back votes with Germany and so we drive straight... and you stop the car 100m later, scream something about sovereignity and leave at a dead run towards a cliff while France and Germany just share puzzled glances with each other...

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we don't need to be in the EU, to do the things we feel are right to do or we want to. It is clear we can do all those things outside the EU. Problems happen when we want to do things our own way, and can't - that's what freedom is, and then we have the right to vote out irresponsibly leaders and governments making change, we don't have that right to do so with the EU, the people do not.

If it's all the same to you, I'd rather we had control and made those 2466 ourselves, than need Brussels to do so, so on the 70 our people want us to do, we can also do for ourselves. If i obey all of the many laws but murder one person, you can say I did 2466 laws correctly, how dare you hold me to account for the one that was not in line out of the 2467. My point? the 1 matters, and if it is 70, that matters a whole lot.

Like what things? What are the specific things you're thinking about? Because all I see is generalities and bullshit, so give us an example...

[Mace]

There is nothing that stops the UK from having a vote who to send to the EU. It's up to your country to do so if it pleases.
You don't have control over your parliament either. If labour or tory get's elected there's not much you can do against them passing laws you don't like if they get enough support for it.

but the people make this decision, there is tha tlevel of transparency.

and when whoever you vote to goes to the EU, one you don't see what decisions they make, so you can't tell whether they are actually representing you (like no politician has never been shown to be a liar and untrustworthy, behind and infront of closed doors - do you trust that level of secrecy? I don't!) and even if they were, do you not see that when their decisions (representing yours) are not acceptable to everyone else in that room (individuals, not nations), there is squat you can do.

This is not the sort of leadership of government I want. Is that what you want?

If your government didn't have any control over the EU your wouldnt have special trade deals, exemptions from Euro and so forth. You can decide alot of things. Like some eastern countries have done when it comes to enforcing their borders against immigrants for instance. Everything the EU says isn't law and alot is optional.

Do you understand these so called deals we have here right? have you heard what Angela has said concerning Britains membership? Britain has not been fully in the EU yet, so the EU has allowed it concessions, everything is going to change with these so called concessions Britain has should it decide to choose the EU. IT will have to be in it properly and it won't have any power to change any decision against it.

This is what is important, you wont' be able to.

Another important point is we don't need to have all these concessions because we don't need to be in the EU, we can do well without the EU, and it's dubious whether we can do well in the EU. I'm not going to say hey.. I'm afraid to take the chance of being on my own, because I fear the economy might struggle more. Tha't snot good enough for me, more is at stake than the economy, my right to choose, are you trying to tell me that I'm not good enough to make decisions for myself or manage my trade or be successful in my business and industrial endeavours? Britain? who without the EU kicked off the industrial revolution?

If a Brit believes this then he really doesn't know who he is. If anyone believes they need the EU for that then they have no idea who they are.

Even if you leave you will still have to accept EU laws. There is no getting around it. Even US have to accept EU laws if they want to trade.
It's a representative democracy and it has it's flaws but saying you lack influence is just absurd.
If you want more influence as a person your should try and enforce direct democracy instead.

if we want to trade with the EU, but you're not menitonign that they will have to accept our laws if they want to trade with us. That's how trading works, it's fear tactics to present an argument from that one side alone, as if curtailing the goods you sell to the EU by compling to their standards (laws as you put it) is some sort of hinderance .. this happens with any body you trade with, if i wanted to trade with Ghana I ahve to accept Ghanian trade laws, that doesn't mean i have to be a part of Ghana.

Now with regards to my sovreignty which is where the key issue lies, I prefer to be free and make my own laws that are best for my people without hainvg a body push any law they want even if i agree with 2466 of them, it matters that 1 isn't good for me, it matters, because I should be able to choose what's right for me in my own country.

I don't need an EU to do that, so why should I let the EU body control me?

No thank you!

[Lorianus]

I'm not British

But that superiority complex is how we feel you treat us in my country, fair enough we needed a bail out but you now have complete say over us and all of our major infrastructure is owned by German companies. (which we had to sell as part of the bailout terms)

The state my country is in affects my decision which is my I honestly believe the UK should leave and control itself. No matter what I just cannot justify to myself, is allowing another country or state to rule over your own. Call it superiority or stupidity all you want, but wanting to be in complete control of your own destiny/decision is not a crime nor something to be ashamed of.

Im not German

I suppose your talking about greece, you guys should be furious and out in arms at your own goverment for letting it come to what it became in the first place instead of being furious about other memberstates bailing you out.

The strategy your government wanted was basically please just delete our debt and call it a day, no wonder that the EU wouldnt comply to that.

[Dizzeeyooo]

When you allow someone to decide everything about you

2% of laws "THEY DECIDE EVERYTHING ABOUT US" hehe

[Noradin]

But the Greeks did choose a different economic plan that was offered to them - and they were told to go fuck themselves.

Offered them by people who did not have the means to follow through on their promise.
They were lied to by their politicans (again), and they fell for it (again).

If some politican promises you the moon and you elect him for it you cannot expect someone uninvolved to get it for you if the politican turns out a fraud.

[Slant]

you not getting that you don't decide right? Your politicians went along with those votes, not you, and when they didn't want to, they were powerless about it. Yeah, it doesn't make it okay. When you want don't want to go along with them you can boot them out, and if you put in people who didn't want to go along with the EU, and they voted 50% against, or 80% against, you'd still be defeated and have no choice but to listen. You are not in control, it's like salvery.

When you are forced to do something you don't want to do yeah. When you allow someone to decide everything about you, and say it's okay, when your politicians and not you vote on those issues.

You can choose slavery you know, just because you choose it doesn't mean it isn't.

So, your own Government isn't doing what you want... and that's the fault of the EU. And now you're voting to get out of the EU, so... your Government (that doesn'T do what you want) is the sole maker of laws of your country. And all this because... 2% of EU legislation was against British wishes?

What kind of fucked up logic is that? I mean, congratulations, this is how democracies work. You don't always get what you want and you compromise 80% of the times to get at least a bit of what you wanted. This is the same principle in every democracy. What, do you think every decision in British Parliament is unanimously? Do you ACTUALLY think that? Last I heard, Scottish interests were dead last in the British Parliament, a reason why they're having these independence movements to begin with. Northern Ireland? Not having much of a say of what's decided in London, do they?

Don't they teach you basic democracy in school? Where did you go to school?