BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Noradin]

Germany decided how a national economy that wasn't their own would be run. Not that nation's people.

It was as undemocratic as you can get.

Their democratically elected representatives decide how to spend Germany's money (as they were appointed to do) and they decided to offer Greece a deal they could take or leave.

Perfectly democratic.

[dribbles]

http://europa.eu/index_en.htm
Oh, we'll sell you as much as you want. And it'll be your Government that imposes customs on every single piece of it. And you (the end consumer) will pay those customs. To your Government. It's all legit, see?

How much do you think we will want if our government sticks 100% uplift in tax/tariffs on all German goods and zero rates japanese stuff?

[Mace]

I read that and instantly a mental scene played in my head. You driving a car and saying "I want to turn left!" - I say "But there's a wall... we should really not turn left!" - You: "But I want to turn left, don't impose on me, it's my decision I am a free human being!" - Me "Ok, that may be the case, but... there really is a wall, we should reconsider!" and then we have a vote, France in the back votes with Germany and so we drive straight... and you stop the car 100m later, scream something about sovereignity and leave at a dead run towards a cliff while France and Germany just share puzzled glances with each other...

I think you're missing the point. I decide I can turn left to, I don't need Mr Brussels/Strassbourg to tell me I should turn left. And if this happens 2466 that we both say turn left, then for the 60 times I want to go to the Food store on Avenue road rather than the one on commercial road, and Mr Brussels/Strasbourg says I should go to the one on Commercial Road, I can go to the one on Avenue road even if he disagrees with me.

It's silly to say I have to say in because hey i agree with certain decisions i would also have made on my own. This is not what's at stake here.

Like what things? What are the specific things you're thinking about? Because all I see is generalities and bullshit, so give us an example...

And I see mis-representation of information, manipulation and fear. You are free to choose what you want to choose, but for the reasons I'm very concerned about, and making quite clear, and taking the time to explain to you. I don't want in. I choose out, Britain should take its destiny into ITS own hands.

[khalltusk]

Voting remain today but I am betting on brexit as theres still some good odds at the bookies.

Either way I win!

[Slant]

Do you understand these so called deals we have here right? have you heard what Angela has said concerning Britains membership? Britain has not been fully in the EU yet, so the EU has allowed it concessions, everything is going to change with these so called concessions Britain has should it decide to choose the EU. IT will have to be in it properly and it won't have any power to change any decision against it.

This is what is important, you wont' be able to.

This is factually untrue. It's an actual, blatant lie. Nobody ever said Britain would lose concessions they gained even as recent as February. The existing status quo would remain exactly as it is. As for future negotiations, that remains to be seen. But nobody, especially not Merkel, has even suggested that the EU would renegade on the existing treaties.

What an utter piece of trash bullshit post that was. I feel disgusted having to reply to the idiocy.

[Mace]

So, your own Government isn't doing what you want... and that's the fault of the EU. And now you're voting to get out of the EU, so... your Government (that doesn'T do what you want) is the sole maker of laws of your country. And all this because... 2% of EU legislation was against British wishes?

What kind of fucked up logic is that? I mean, congratulations, this is how democracies work. You don't always get what you want and you compromise 80% of the times to get at least a bit of what you wanted. This is the same principle in every democracy. What, do you think every decision in British Parliament is unanimously? Do you ACTUALLY think that? Last I heard, Scottish interests were dead last in the British Parliament, a reason why they're having these independence movements to begin with. Northern Ireland? Not having much of a say of what's decided in London, do they?

Don't they teach you basic democracy in school? Where did you go to school?

do you not know how to read and understand? Do I have to explain everything to you? Not being rude or trying to be offensive here, but pause! Take a breadth, now go back and careful follow the my response to the person I was responding to, and you will get the real meaning of what I'm saying. If you still have an issue with that, I'll be happy to explain in more detail.

[Slant]

How much do you think we will want if our government sticks 100% uplift in tax/tariffs on all German goods and zero rates japanese stuff?

Nothing, I expect. Good luck with your British cars. And your computers, home made with quality British chips. Your medical supplies. Your famous British olive oil. And so on and so forth...

Oh, yes, I'm ignoring that 0 rates Japanese stuff. If you understood customs, you'd understand that you don't "punish" one country with customs while letting another go scot free. What kind of idiot scenario is that?

[Noradin]

Make no mistake, we're not giving you the money as a gift. We want it back. What we're giving you is far more important, it's time. We give you time to fix your shit and deal with everything later when Greece is stronger. If you still haven't grasped that, then perhaps we should let you rot, because obviously the message isn't getting through.

Of course it is not a gift.
It cannot be. Making that money a gift would be effectively punishing all other member states and setting up Greece to fail again because it would take the preassure to avoid further mistakes off of them.

[Slant]

And I see mis-representation of information, manipulation and fear. You are free to choose what you want to choose, but for the reasons I'm very concerned about, and making quite clear, and taking the time to explain to you. I don't want in. I choose out, Britain should take its destiny into ITS own hands.

You're dodging the question, what specifically are you thinking you're not getting by being in the EU. What is the decision that you want to make that the EU prevents you from doing? Because all I see is a lot of ranting and jack shit for arguments.

[Deleted]

Country has been on the winning side because it has been in agreement with the EUs decisions, the issue is when it is not in agreement with the EU, the 70 times that has happened 70 times it has made no difference. It's an illusion of control. The point is when you want to do something different, you don't have the freedom to do, even when it affects your own people and your nation, your industries, your border controls - that's the problem.

It's effectively saying that we can't make these decisions for ourselves, so we should let Brussles/Strasbourg decide, I say no. We can decide, and we should. I don't trust Brussels or Strasbourg, I don't trust nameless people I cannot elect, and have no control over.

I can elect my own governemnt a fraction of tehw hole thing, I don't elect anyone else or control anyone else, neither can I affect their decisions, I'm not happy and I don't think it's a good thing to trust anyone with so much power, let alone people I don't know. My government doesn't have that power, we have the power over our governement, that's not the case with the EU.. .

I say don't be afriad, don't sell out on the risk that you might struggle a little bit more for a few more years economically, that's not even a certainity, it's a big if, don't let a little change be the price of your freedom and sovreignty. This is Britain, remember the Britannia song? Britain shall never be slaves. Don't choose willingly to be one.

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I see, and which point is that?

Uninformed.

The EU would love to control economies but in reality they don't, your economy is your governments work. It's true the EU does have a lot of safeguards in place to prevent governments of interfering in companies by skewering the competition in their favor for more profits out of it. Or your worker rights, remember the UK had barely any, the EU pushed a lot for fair worker rights onto the UK when they joined, which every British person should be grateful for.

Since the UK joined the EU they gained around 650 billion in investments that were related to the EU, and if you add the amount of money the EU gives back to the UK yearly, the cost they pay to stay in the EU (over the years) is not even a 3rd of that total amount. This is the entire problem with the UK, they are greedy, they expect to always get more when their contributions are not even half of what France and Germany contribute, even Italy with 400 billion euros smaller economy contributions nearly 21 billion more per year compared to the UK, even Spain similar, nearly contributes as much as the UK.

Immigrants, yes everyone hates that, but if you look at the UK, one of the richest countries, takes in not even a 3rd of what Germany and France do. If you take things in perspective, countries like Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg take in far more than the UK when compared to the weight it has on their systems or their population/population density. Yet you don't see them throwing hissy fits like a 5 year old whilst demanding to get paid more, and contributing less at the same time.

[Noradin]

So your saying having some people who are unelected by are nation having powers to make laws is fine ? and being locked in to the eu legal system that we cant change laws with out there say so ? Atleast not being part of the eu we can vote goverments out and hold the accountable can you say the same to the eu ?

The leave side is saying that.
I'm not. Every decision made by the EU is legitimated by democratic means (as far as you can call systems like the UK one "democratic").

[Mace]

This is factually untrue. It's an actual, blatant lie. Nobody ever said Britain would lose concessions they gained even as recent as February. The existing status quo would remain exactly as it is. As for future negotiations, that remains to be seen. But nobody, especially not Merkel, has even suggested that the EU would renegade on the existing treaties.

What an utter piece of trash bullshit post that was. I feel disgusted having to reply to the idiocy.

but that's not the point. I clearly gave a potential scenario that could happen, and you should be weary of that, because it could. I don't know if it will, but these are the reasons we have ACCOUNTABILITY, checks and balance, an opposition party and an electorate that decides who makes its decisions for it. So situations like that are much harder.

and calling something idiocy without considering it yourself, and not clearly understanding or twisting it doesn't make it so, and actually makes you look exactly like the things you are calling. Now did I have to explain to you it was a potential scenario when it was clear in the text? Does it stop any of what I said from being true? An illustration is an illustration, as is a potential scenario that help with the different points I try to make to give you a snapshot of the scope and breadth of what is at stake.

You have a freewill choice to disregard it, or worse be offended. You don't see me calling you idiot, and b/s because I am not offended at you, or hurt, nor intimidated either, I want the truth about this, and I am explaining to you what I have observed and emphasizing why it matters. I am hoping that it helps you, but again if you don't want to believe it or if you do but don't want it or agree with it, that's your choice, it is what it is.

[Slant]

do you not know how to read and understand? Do I have to explain everything to you? Not being rude or trying to be offensive here, but pause! Take a breadth, now go back and careful follow the my response to the person I was responding to, and you will get the real meaning of what I'm saying. If you still have an issue with that, I'll be happy to explain in more detail.

I maintain my position. Did you ever actually get a lesson in democracy?

[dribbles]

Oh, yes, I'm ignoring that 0 rates Japanese stuff. If you understood customs, you'd understand that you don't "punish" one country with customs while letting another go scot free. What kind of idiot scenario is that?

One that you would advocate for the UK as punishment if it votes for Brexit. Oh and good luck with your manufacturing industry when your best customer decides to buy Japanese.....I see a lot of sausages in your diet for the future!

[caervek]

Wtf? The EC already imposed a lot of rules onto every member state. It was just more formalised and required a lot of bureaucratic shit going on. The EU is really the same, with the same underlying concepts and ideas. The whole point of the EU from Maastricht onwards was to streamline the process and make the EU more flexible, more efficient. A plan that's now somehow in rhetorics reversed into a perverted argument of "being a dictatorship".

The EU treaty of 1992 was what transformed the EEC from a trade partnership into the fourth reich that it has become today. Had the EU treaty never happened then the would be no complaints today as the EU wouldn't be sodomizing everyone by imposing stupid decisions on all it's members and ruining everything.

[Noradin]

UK voted on the winning side 2466 times when i came to passing laws. You lost 56. That is having an influence.
UK had a different opinion 2% of the time.

Clearly it seems that EU or no EU your countries politicians want most what has passed in EU.

edit: spelling.

So you lose 2% of sovereignty by leaving you say, but what are you gaining?

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Remain will prolly win which is a pity. Id have loved to see peoples reaction to the consequences of a brexit.

There is a reason why "may you live in interesting times" is considered a curse even though it it has its lure.

[edw]

We need to let the special snowflake fly, i recommend UK to vote for leaving, no need to stress anymore on this issue.

[Mace]

Uninformed.

The EU would love to control economies but in reality they don't, your economy is your governments work. It's true the EU does have a lot of safeguards in place to prevent governments of interfering in companies by skewering the competition in their favor for more profits out of it. Or your worker rights, remember the UK had barely any, the EU pushed a lot for fair worker rights onto the UK when they joined, which every British person should be grateful for.

Since the UK joined the EU they gained around 650 billion in investments that were related to the EU, and if you add the amount of money the EU gives back to the UK yearly, the cost they pay to stay in the UK (over the years) is not even a 3rd of that total amount. This is the entire problem with the UK, they are greedy, they expect to always get more when their contributions are not even half of what France and Germany contribute, even Italy with 400 billion euros smaller economy contributions nearly 21 billion more per year compared to the UK, even Spain similar, nearly contributes as much as the UK.

Immigrants, yes everyone hates that, but if you look at the UK, one of the richest countries, takes in not even a 3rd of what Germany and France do. If you take things in perspective, countries like Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg take in far more than the UK when compared to the weight it has on their systems or their population/population density. Yet you don't see them throwing hissy fits like a 5 year old whilst demanding to get paid more, and contributing less at the same time.

But without geting too lost in the detail, what remains clear to me, is that the EU is more trouble than it's worth, and I don't need it to make those decisions for me, I can make those decisions myself, we can govern everything about our trade and economy ourselves, what is at war here is a different style of government, one that is really controlling bordering on oppressive, but worse - I can't influence or change, and the other who ofc loves that control but doesn't have as much yet, but to which at least I am able to influence a lot more. More power to the people, not less.

If you believe that big governement and experts are the ones to make the decisions for you, then that is exactly what the EU gives you. If you believe that you are the best one to make decisions for yourself, then you have a real chance of that in your own country, even if they are big government now, you can change that - this is what you can't do in the EU

[Noradin]

I see, and which point is that?

The one about not having democratic legitimation.

[Deleted]

So you lose 2% of sovereignty by leaving you say, but what are you gaining?

I don't care about what you're gaining as i just wanted to add to the "We are controlled by the EU making laws we don't want in the first place!" argument.