BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Slant]

but that's not the point. I clearly gave a potential scenario that could happen, and you should be weary of that, because it could. I don't know if it will, but these are the reasons we have ACCOUNTABILITY, checks and balance, an opposition party and an electorate that decides who makes its decisions for it. So situations like that are much harder.

and calling something idiocy without considering it yourself, and not clearly understanding or twisting it doesn't make it so, and actually makes you look exactly like the things you are calling. Now did I have to explain to you it was a potential scenario when it was clear in the text? Does it stop any of what I said from being true? An illustration is an illustration, as is a potential scenario that help with the different points I try to make to give you a snapshot of the scope and breadth of what is at stake.

You have a freewill choice to disregard it, or worse be offended. You don't see me calling you idiot, and b/s because I am not offended at you, or hurt, nor intimidated either, I want the truth about this, and I am explaining to you what I have observed and emphasizing why it matters. I am hoping that it helps you, but again if you don't want to believe it or if you do but don't want it or agree with it, that's your choice, it is what it is.

So basically, you're making shit up now and expect me to take it seriously, because...? If you want to have an actual debate, how about not thinking up dream scenarios of armageddon that are next to inconceivable by today's policies? The EU is no a country, it lacks certain democratic structures, but by all means there are checks and balances. One body suggests legislation, another can reject it, a third votes on it, they all watch each other, just like a proper democracy. And they're all elected in some manner, directly or indirectly. They all represent democratic opinions.

See, I can say this, because I informed myself. You're just ranting wthout even knowing how the EU works. And it shows. It's embarassing.

I wasn't calling you an idiot, I was calling your post idiotic. And it is. Make a better post with actual arguments that I can take seriously, and I'll take more time to reply to it in detail. As it stands, you have no argumentative base at all to stand on. Just bullshit.

[Whiskeyjack WN]

Im not German

I suppose your talking about greece, you guys should be furious and out in arms at your own goverment for letting it come to what it became in the first place instead of being furious about other memberstates bailing you out.

The strategy your government wanted was basically please just delete our debt and call it a day, no wonder that the EU wouldnt comply to that.

Apologies at work and thought it was slant who i was quoting sorry.

No I mean Ireland

Our bailout was forced on us to save the Euro and not because we were in debt. infact we were in a surplus.
But our dumbass move to guarantee our banks removed investors from european banks into our own, which almost ruined the euro. So it is our own fault the bailout was forced on us as it was our actions that almost ruined it.

It the terms of the bailout that we don't like rather than the actual bail out itself.

[Mehrunes]

So your saying having some people who are unelected by are nation having powers to make laws is fine ? and being locked in to the eu legal system that we cant change laws with out there say so ? Atleast not being part of the eu we can vote goverments out and hold the accountable can you say the same to the eu ?

Not only are the institutions of the EU filled out democratically, but you can vote different parties into the EP if the old ones suck and the EC can be removed through a vote of no confidence.

[Slant]

One that you would advocate for the UK as punishment if it votes for Brexit. Oh and good luck with your manufacturing industry when your best customer decides to buy Japanese.....I see a lot of sausages in your diet for the future!

No offense, but are you having trouble reading the English language? Do you know how customs work? The default state between countries is to put customs on it. When we sell stuff to the UK, the UK puts customs on it to protect its own economy against dumping prices. The same goes vice versa, if we imported that much from you in the first place. And fuck, you're not our best customer. The EU is. Who the fuck do you think you are? God, you're almost as bad as the Americans... I don't think Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, Seat, Renault, Citroen, Fiat or any of the supercar manufacturers from the champs of supercars in Italy are worried about sales to the UK. They build good cars, the UK builds shite cars. Everyone knows that. You won't suddenly start loving Japanese cars. You'll buy our cars as you have before, and you'll pay your own Government a hefty sum in customs for it. It'll be you (the end user) that'll pay the price for the Brexit. Not your Premier that sits comfortably in his 100k pound rolls royce cruising down Downing St.

The lack of perspective you have, it's astonishing. As if Japanese cars would suddenly not be customed just to spite the EU.

[Noradin]

Absolutely!

We are your customer, you are not ours. Ever heard that the "customer is king"? Economics not a strong point of yours obviously.

Yes, that phrase that is repeated all the time in order to make people believe it and give consumers the illusion of having power.
In truth they do not have much power at all, yes, they get to make life hard for customer service, but it is not them who decide what is offered unless they unite.

[Slant]

The EU treaty of 1992 was what transformed the EEC from a trade partnership into the fourth reich that it has become today. Had the EU treaty never happened then the would be no complaints today as the EU wouldn't be sodomizing everyone by imposing stupid decisions on all it's members and ruining everything.

Are you kidding me? The British rebate is from the 80s, mate. Thatcher threw quite a few hissy fits to get it done. The British hated the EC as much as they hate the EU, because Empire... they just can't get themselves to stoop as low as acknowledging that they're on the same level as the plebs from the other side of the channel. And THAT my friend, is the core of this discussion.

[Whiskeyjack WN]

You still haven't told me what it is the UK is exporting... once you do that, we'll continue the discussion about how much the EU actually needs the UK.

Money. I think around £10bn after refunds? thats a £10bn hole with is a lot even excluding trading.

And the EU needs the UK for stability on the world market and for the confidence of the world market. Lets face it Germany and France do not have a great record on their own. Its the sum of the parts that stabilizes the EU. The UK leave removes the 2nd largest part and may set a chain reaction for other countries to leave.

[Mehrunes]

But without geting too lost in the detail, what remains clear to me, is that the EU is more trouble than it's worth, and I don't need it to make those decisions for me, I can make those decisions myself, we can govern everything about our trade and economy ourselves, what is at war here is a different style of government, one that is really controlling bordering on oppressive, but worse - I can't influence or change, and the other who ofc loves that control but doesn't have as much yet, but to which at least I am able to influence a lot more. More power to the people, not less.

Because UK government will magically shrink in case of Brexit? Is it because the EU had to hold them back with their overreach? And sure, you can trade on your own. But not only is it a weaker position than a unified block, you also make it harder to trade with the rest of Europe.

If you believe that big governement and experts are the ones to make the decisions for you, then that is exactly what the EU gives you. If you believe that you are the best one to make decisions for yourself, then you have a real chance of that in your own country, even if they are big government now, you can change that - this is what you can't do in the EU

Good luck with turning UK into a small government country in this century. What will happen first? UK getting a small government or Turkey joining the EU like leavers fearmonger about? The bets are on!

[Noradin]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...-a7096931.html

Germany are putting out all the stops to secure a remain vote now, this is critical stuff!

Please do no confuse "BILD" with Germany. Notice how they do not have the same name and one is the embodiment of a cheap tabloid while the other is a state?

[caervek]

I have my voting plan sorted: a yes saucer and a no saucer plus two types of random cat food

[Mace]

So basically, you're making shit up now and expect me to take it seriously, because...?

trashing what I say doesn't change what I've said. You have not answered or responsded or dispproved any of what I've said, you've made comments about it, I have responded to. You taken responses to other people's queries out of context and made unrelated responses I was not referring to or either mistook or intentionally mis-represented what I said. if you are in doubt as to what I said and why I said it, here it is again, lets see you show and prove that it's all being made up. Stuff isn't made up because you say it is made up, an opinion also is not a fact, you can disagree or argue with an opinion ofc, but you haven't made one convnicning point to me that disproves or answers any of the basic concerns I have laid out, which should be clear for you to see.

You should be seeking to understand what is actually going on rather than stubbornly sticking to your stance and opinion then trying to interpret what is clearly infront of you to your own desire. If the evidence is not adding up, re-consider. Or are you not interested in what's actually going on? However if the body of the EU is what you want, that type of governance and control I liken (if provactively) to slavery or little more than it, that's your choice.. If you didn't get it the first time, here it is.

• I don't trust an organization and body who makes decisions in secret on my behalf by a bunch of people I don't know who have no accountability to anyone. It is so un-democratic.
  
• When it's a population of 60 million you have to persuade to be elected, it's much harder to control than a small group of people who can do what they want, whenever they want (or whenever whoever is holding their balls or blackmailing them, threatening them wants), and you can't vote them out or change them if you're not happy about them, they basically have impunity to do what they want whenever. No thank you!
  
• It's so much harder to hoodwink and manipulate 60 million people than it is a small bunch of people (even if they think themselves elite people better and more intelligent than me) - I'm certainly not going to allow or vote to allow a small bunch of people like that I have no say in nor can influence, have so much power over me, nor should you. Nor should you trust them with THAT. (regardless of their good intentions - no man or group should have such control over you - not in this kind of world we live in, I won't trust most people further than I could throw them) At least in my governement, I have the ability to affect things more directly. And you want me to vote against affirming that? Fat chance!
  
• I don't trust a bunch of people who think they know better than me on how I should live my life, dictating everything to me on what I should do, where I am left out of the decision making process. Trust a bunch of people who are so confident they know all the answers becasue they're better than me? - reminds me of Hitler and his so called superior race where he and other elites are the only ones qualified and superior enough to make decisions for everyone.
  
• I don't have any confidence that Britain can change or influence the EU at all...even David Cameron couldn't and he's the prime minster, all this nonsense spoken by people in the Remain campaign - Vote In to change Europe from the inside seems like a delusion to me if your own prime minster with a powerful bargaining chip of a referendum threat hanging over Europe can't persuade them to change, you honestly think that once you've made a decision to stay in Europe, they will now listen to you?
  
• Every time Britain has disagreed with the EU and tried to change its mind on something it has failed, every single time, and not just for EU-wide policy, on laws and policies concerning its own borders, and Jeremy Corbyn expects me to believe that he will be able to change the EUs mind on anything it has decided is best for me?
  
• I feel like Britain's gotten a golden opportunity to come out and be independent, yet it seems a little fear about the uncertainty of the economy has people frightened? They think they can scare us into rejecting independence because we are too scared to govern ourselves, determine our own rules or actually manage our trade. So scared anything can go wrong we forget we can determine our own future and generate the innovation we need.
  
• This makes me furious, that there are people in this country that feel that Britain is unable to survive or do anything without been told what to do by Brussels. It's like losing your balls... can you imagine the US or commonwealth nations saying no, no, we don't want independence, we are scared that we can't govern ourselves or manage our trade or economy without you, please continue to decide things for us, please continue to decide everything about how we live our lives.
  
• I hear experts give their opinions, and yet people are considering them as certainty.. when did you decide that other people are more qualified to tell you what to do? That's nonsense, and a slave mentality - YOU are the best person to decide what to do. So called "experts" are being touted in front of you, but if you listen to them, it's all "maybe", "if", "likely" , "in my opinion" - they don't know anything for sure. These are the scaredy cats that are so afraid of what other people think than what they actually can do themselves, and you want to trust them?
  
• The same experts who were telling you no economic crash was coming in 2008, and they ridiculed the few who told you it was.. experts get it wrong, and sometimes a whole bunch of them do. They can't tell the future to one iota of accuracy, the only future they can determine is the one that you allow them too, if you allow yourself to be dictated by their agenda.. trust yourself. Listen to the arguments, make up YOUR own mind, have the facts about you.
  
• It's a lie that coming out of the EU means you are not European or you don't like your European brothers.. I love my European brothers, but I don't want or need to be a part of such a secret body like the EU to prove that. I don't need to surrender and cede more powers to Brussels or Strassbourg for that to happen.
  
• I don't believe for a second that if I'm outside the EU, the companies and businesses in the EU, for which I'm one of their biggest markets will all of a sudden want to stop trading.. that's such nonsense. Where will they get the money from? who will now buy their goods if they stop trading with Britain? Every business person wants more people to buy their goods, you want to tell me that if you come out of the EU, you think the companies, traders, farmers, businesses in France or Germany or Spain, Italy or Holland would want to stop selling their goods to you? or want to stop buying your goods and services? You think you need a trade agreement to make that happen? Commonsense dudes, you don't need an expert to tell you that.
  
• The EU is not doing brilliantly at all, the way it goes about things stinks, it's stifling, and it's secretive, if that's not warning bells I don't know what is, and you're being cowardly if you feel that you need to be ruled by that body in order to be prosperous or survive, and Britain should not forget it has trading partners all over the world, including the EU. The fears about the economy are just that, FEARS. It would seem that massive corporations love the EU because they are the only ones that can comply with their bazillion regulations, which suffocates small businesses who in turn have to depend on the EU instead of themselves and being innovative to survive.
  
  So when you hear people say oh small businesses need the EU, that's because the EUs rules and regulations have put them in that position, which is gravy train for you big corporation because it gets to eliminate a whole load of competition as most can't possibly keep up with everything they have to deal with to stay compliant with the EU. And when the EU determines who, how and what they can trade, well if it decides it's better to protect fishermen of Holland and Portuagl because they are less off, it can say hey Britain, you can't fish in your own waters any longer, because those fishermen (small businesses from there need to), and ofc they can't, only the bigger corporations can actually get the tech and reach to go that far away anyway, so the very "small businesses" they are supposedly helping actually sink, and the bigger cats get in, and there is nothing you can do about it. No amount of complaining you do or trying to change it will work. So you're either left high and dry or even more dependent on hand outs to keep going. That's not a good system, common sense should tell you that, I don't need an expert who's clearly got that wrong determining everything for me.. how emasculating.
  
• They say "protect" small businesses, you mean protect failed businesses by helping them continue to trade with poorer goods which stifles innovation big time. When something fails, often enough it's because it's not good enough, you have to go back and come up with better innovations, in the case where business behave corruptly to eliminate competition, this is where a government steps in and only in such cases to intervene.. but if you instead say yes to the EU, they determine and not your own government determining what and how this is dealt with. I don't need the EU to be able to regulate my own country...and it comes full back to sovereignty.
  
• I think we should decide how to run our own affairs, I totally resent a secret organization determining everything for me, trying to fill me with fear that I will not be able to do so, that I can't govern myself any longer, I can't survive without the EU, that I need the body of the EU to determine everything for me. It's just not true. This so called European pipe dream they've been talking to us about is one big failure, it doesn't work, and they're forcing us to go along regardless of whether we want to or not. Is this what you want to be a part off? Because of fear? because you'd rather listen to so called experts rather than determine things for yourself?
  
• Wait a sec, isn't the EU trying to do exactly what Hitler was trying to do? The way he planned to govern and rule the world, where he and is elite decide everything that's best for you and you have to accept it, no matter what, everything controlled where in life you can't control everything comes out of naive fear? Naive because you will be for thinking you can control everything, and fear because that's the reason you try so hard to control everything.
  
• Look, I don't need to be governed by someone else to work with them okay, I can govern myself and still work with them, it doesn't stop all of us in this world from needing each other, but we don't need to be governed by someone else to make that happen. I resent that state, whom I certainly don't trust with all that power, governing without transparency, without accountability having so much power or control over me, government is meant to guide by leave of the people, History is full of the constant catastrophe that happens when we just let other people do that without checks and balances, this is why we switched to democracy in the first place.
  
• Then we've gone around in the world, telling other countries this is how they should live their own lives, the people should choose, then we ourselves decide to give up our own sovereignty to someone we don't determine rules us.

[Pua]

When that "different economic plan" amounts to "Yeah we aren't paying you anything back, cheers for the free money though", then they deserve to get fucked over.

a. That wasn't the plan.
b. You're missing the point.

Listen to yourself... here's a country, begging Germany for hundreds of billions of Euros over the next decade and you think it's okay that they demand, actually demand to spend it as they see fit? And when Germany says "Uhh, no, IF we give you money, we want you to spend it like so" and that's what you call undemocratic? Wtf is going on in your head?

Listen to yourself.

The Greeks asked for a bailout under the auspice of their democratically chosen plan in order to ensure that they could grow their economy and paid the money back within the agreed timescale. Germany, of course, did this under the paragon of the European Union. At that point, it'd have been appropriate to have agreed a financial package that was in keeping with what both sides wanted; both the lender, and the Greek government.

But what did they get?

"We'll give you the money, but we want you to abide by our rules rather than what you were elected to enact. Also, we're telling you to apply an economic policy that's never worked, anywhere, and has done nothing but damage to the economies who are trying it now".

You seem to be under the wholly mistaken impression that I think the Greeks should have been given billions of Euros, and been allowed to do what they like with it - including spunk it against a wall. I'm not. I'm saying that the European Union, at the behest of Germany, decided to completely ignore a democratic decision in Greece, and enforce their policy on the country instead - a policy that, everywhere it's been tried, has resulted in complete, utter and abject failure.

After Brexit and Grexit, we need words for other countries leaving the EU.

Czechout
Oustria
Byegium
Finish
Italeave
Departugal

You win the thread, Os.

[Noradin]

and when whoever you vote to goes to the EU, one you don't see what decisions they make, so you can't tell whether they are actually representing you (like no politician has never been shown to be a liar and untrustworthy, behind and infront of closed doors - do you trust that level of secrecy? I don't!) and even if they were, do you not see that when their decisions (representing yours) are not acceptable to everyone else in that room (individuals, not nations), there is squat you can do.

That must be you being uninformed.
I can and have looked up this information in the past.
Do you know why Google translate works so well for European languages?
Because the EU publishes anything it does in all these languages freely accessible on the internet so everyone can look it up if they wish.

[Mehrunes]

The EU treaty of 1992 was what transformed the EEC from a trade partnership into the fourth reich that it has become today. Had the EU treaty never happened then the would be no complaints today as the EU wouldn't be sodomizing everyone by imposing stupid decisions on all it's members and ruining everything.

Fourth Reich bullshit aside, Single European Act already pushed EEC more into political union (was already getting there long before that). UK gladly signed it. Hell, they signed the Maastricht Treaty too. And the funny thing about international organizations with legislative powers is that the member states willingly agree to them "imposing" decisions. UK MEPs vote in favor of almost all of EU legislation anyway, so good luck proving this imposition onto the poor, oppressed UK.

[Raldazzar]

just got back from voting. oddly tense atmosphere. much moreso than the general election.

either way, I think it'll be remain that wins. the leave and remainers cancel each other out. itll come down to undecided. and undecided tends to go with the status quo. the 'why upset the balance, im not miserable right now!'..

[Noradin]

And I see mis-representation of information, manipulation and fear. You are free to choose what you want to choose, but for the reasons I'm very concerned about, and making quite clear, and taking the time to explain to you. I don't want in. I choose out, Britain should take its destiny into ITS own hands.

TLTR: "I have no sources bacause I made up all those points and now I'm deflecting to hide that fact."

[dribbles]

No offense, but are you having trouble reading the English language? Do you know how customs work? The default state between countries is to put customs on it. When we sell stuff to the UK, the UK puts customs on it to protect its own economy against dumping prices. The same goes vice versa, if we imported that much from you in the first place.

Agreed and it could just as easily be a 100% mark up.

You know we have a sale of goods act here, really we should be instigating proceedings for a return of prior funds paid under the complaint that the EU is "not fit for purpose"

How much do you think we could charge Germany/France for access to the free trade area of the 5th largest economy? £350 million a week? you could have a little bit back if you spend it how we decide!

[Slant]

Money. I think around £10bn after refunds? thats a £10bn hole with is a lot even excluding trading.

And the EU needs the UK for stability on the world market and for the confidence of the world market. Lets face it Germany and France do not have a great record on their own. Its the sum of the parts that stabilizes the EU. The UK leave removes the 2nd largest part and may set a chain reaction for other countries to leave.

10bn? That's not a whole lot in a budget of over 160bn. We'll scrape by. Just.

The EU needs the UK for stability? Did you hear that professor telling the audience about how literally everyone in the world is holding their breath now if they're having anything to do with global trade? Want to know why? Because they want to know if the UK has access to the single market in the next years. Because the EU is the stabilising factor, not the UK. The only one destabilising the situation right now is the UK. And let me be blunt: While France and Germany know they're the two biggest players in the EU, they also know that the sum of the other countries pretty much outweighs them. The stability in the EU doesn't come from Germany and France and the UK alone. These three just give the general direction, the stability comes in no small amount from the small players going along with it and having their voices heard in - yes - a democratic process.

Stability is key. Stability lets trade prosper. Traders LOVE stability. They have such a boner for it, it's unbelievable. And the UK is doing the biggest turn off the EU has ever seen, even including Greece. That was just a minor bump in the road compared to this idiocy.

[Noradin]

but that's not the point. I clearly gave a potential scenario that could happen, and you should be weary of that, because it could. I don't know if it will, but these are the reasons we have ACCOUNTABILITY, checks and balance, an opposition party and an electorate that decides who makes its decisions for it. So situations like that are much harder.

In the EU? Yes you do.
In the UK? Not so much.

[Mehrunes]

The thing you have to remember is they will struggle to see the Uk's point of view. The EU needs the UK a lot more than the UK needs the EU. And Germany needs the EU (without the EU Germany would be a shell of what it is now). The UK leaving puts the stability and even the survival of the EU at risk, So understandably the European users on here (especially the German ones) are angry at the UK for threatening the survival of something they have worked hard to build.

UK's trade with EU is almost half their trade. EU's trade with UK is a drop in the bucket. EU will make the Brexit not worth it for the UK making other countries think twice about it. And if Brexit wants to continue having access to the aforementioned huge part of their trade they will have to abide by EU laws anyway and pay their fees, like Norway does. So the EU budget won't change all that much. How is it that the EU needs more the UK more than the other way around again?