BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Slant]

That would not happen in the UK as far as I am aware.

I would be willing to actually bet money that you're not required to have a vote in Parliament to close or open your borders.

[Dizzeeyooo]

But I guarantee you'd get a deal like Norway's if you left.

so free movement of goods and services, as we have now
have to pay a similar amount of money into the EU annually as we do now
have to enter the Schengen zone and have open boarders, which we opt out of now
have absolutely no say in EU policy making or decision making, unlike now where we have a major say

a deal that the Norwegian government hates - why exactly would we want to leave and get a Norwegian deal?

[Mehrunes]

So basically, the EU as a stand alone body gets Primacy and everyone needs to grovel through the EU to get representation. You know, the fucking point I was making before and you just tried to hide under a wall of doublespeak.

I think I trust Sargon over you.

That wasn't what I said in the slightest. But sure, trust someone who either misrepresents facts or doesn't give all the facts like Sargon.

[Noradin]

Oh believe me, I am all for staying in if the EU would give us a fair chance to negotiate our terms and find a good compromise. They didn't even try. it takes two to tango and I don't see how we should be the only party trying to talk.

The problem is that a fair chance is not enough for you, you want to get more than a fair deal:

It's like someone said earlier, it took 43 years to get our position in the EU, and that's still one where Germany and France ream us out if we want anything more than equal trade.

[Shadowmelded]

How are such results revealed ? And when ?

The BBC will be covering it, I'm assuming that means bbc 24. 4am (GMT+1) for Turnout, 5am for Scotland's results, between 6-7am for Englands.

The EU is a quasi-political capitalist undemocratic oligarchy.

Buzzword word-salad.

[Kalis]

I would be willing to actually bet money that you're not required to have a vote in Parliament to close or open your borders.

It would require a change in immigration policy though, presumably that would have to be enacted through Westminster.

[garr21]

The BBC will be covering it, I'm assuming that means bbc 24. 4am (GMT+1) for Turnout, 5am for Scotland's results, between 6-7am for Englands.



Buzzword word-salad.

If that is a buzzword so is calling people racist can't have it bothways now can we.

[Gurluas]

so free movement of goods and services, as we have now
have to pay a similar amount of money into the EU annually as we do now
have to enter the Schengen zone and have open boarders, which we opt out of now
have absolutely no say in EU policy making or decision making, unlike now where we have a major say

a deal that the Norwegian government hates - why exactly would we want to leave and get a Norwegian deal?

And yet you do not get forced to take on EU politics, and EU political laws have no effect whatsoever on Norway. Norway is basically a member of the trading part of EU, but not of the political one. And that's the deal you'd want to go for if you left.

Do you really want the EU to decide that you are forced to take in illegal immigrants, that your laws must be changed to fit this policy, that your country's law is illegal and has to be changed and yadda yadda?

You have exemptions from the EU policies as it is now, but EU's vile ways can only change if they're thoroughly shaken up.

[Frozenbeef]

Remain wins.

[IMG]https://nerdpersonnarrative.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/tumblr_ns1m9xfgib1usoe2vo3_400.gif?w=840[IMG]



Infracted.

[Mehrunes]

Too complicated for you? I'll dumb it down: EU legislation can be initiated by basically anyone.

Is that a bit more easy to comprehend? Doublespeak... lol

I have literally no idea what doublespeak did I use there, let alone where did I get enough of it to build a wall (maybe I channeled my inner Trump subconsciously).

[Gurluas]

You are very wrong, they do have to take on EU laws my fiancée has explicitly told me this, he has to retake his driving test as his old license was not of EU standards so until he redoes his exam he cannot drive. I am sure they follow many many more EU laws in order to have the agreed trade agreement.

That's incorrect, that's a choice Norway made, they weren't forced to do it. If they wanted, they could have their own driving licenses, although they'd be invalid outside of Norway, hence why they follow the EU model to facilitate the Schengen thing.

They weren't forced to do it though.

[Slant]

It would require a change in immigration policy though, presumably that would have to be enacted through Westminster.

I'm not talking about the legal basis for anything. I'm talking about absolute executive powers. Not if it's the right decision to do or not do something. When we talk about executive, we do not talk about the question whether or not it's legal. We're talking about someone saying "You do it now!" and it being done. Legality should be provided or there's hell to pay later, but this is more about actual day-to-day business than legislation, which is really just abstractly dealing with potential situations.

And if England wants to close borders, immigration aside, someone has to actually make the order. And that's your executive body, whoever that is, I'm assuming Cameron and his ministers.

Hum, an example: Parliament says "It's legal to close to border." Chancellor says "It may be legal or not, but we will close the border now" and the justice system says "Well, we'll see if it was legal or not, but you did close the border and if it wasn't according to existing legislation, we'll make you pay for it (by removing you or opening the border or whatever is appropriate to repair the damage)"

Kinda like that.

[Shadowmelded]

If that is a buzzword so is calling people racist can't have it bothways now can we.

Not sure what racism has to do with what we were talking about but nice strawman I guess.

[Deleted]

And yet you do not get forced to take on EU politics, and EU political laws have no effect whatsoever on Norway. Norway is basically a member of the trading part of EU, but not of the political one. And that's the deal you'd want to go for if you left.

Do you really want the EU to decide that you are forced to take in illegal immigrants, that your laws must be changed to fit this policy, that your country's law is illegal and has to be changed and yadda yadda?

You have exemptions from the EU policies as it is now, but EU's vile ways can only change if they're thoroughly shaken up.

Norway has to follow roughly 21% of EU laws, including free movement of people.

So we'd still be getting told what to do, and we wouldn't be able to change that.

[Mehrunes]

I shouldn't need to register to vote in an election. It should be one of my rights as an EU member.

Oh wait, I guess I have less rights as an EU member then eh?

How EP elections are set up is up to the member states. EU puts little limits on that, like requiring a representative voting system to be used (surprise, suprise, UK doesn't use one on national level). I didn't have to register anywhere to vote for EP elections in my country. Don't blame the EU for UK fucking up.

[Gurluas]

Norway has to follow roughly 21% of EU laws, including free movement of people.

So we'd still be getting told what to do, and we wouldn't be able to change that.

21% is much less than 50% or 100%.

And the only laws Norway are required to follow is for the trade agreements, and they're not forced to do it, they choose to in order to preserve the trade agreement.

- - - Updated - - -

That's not the impression my SO is under as he cannot even drive in Norway now until he redoes his license.

Because like I said, Norway chose to implement that law, Had they not, your SO could have driven in Norway but his license would be invalid anywhere outside of Norway.

[Deleted]

21% is much less than 50% or 100%.

And the only laws Norway are required to follow is for the trade agreements, and they're not forced to do it, they choose to in order to preserve the trade agreement.

The free movement of people, which will be the big one that gets talked about in the UK, is a must have, because its part of the EEA. So yeah, there goes control of our borders.

[Mehrunes]

So it needs to be approved by people appointed by the EU itself.

So it's literally not democratic in the slightest.

But members of the European Parliament are not "appointed by the EU itself".

[Kalis]

I'm not talking about the legal basis for anything. I'm talking about absolute executive powers. Not if it's the right decision to do or not do something. When we talk about executive, we do not talk about the question whether or not it's legal. We're talking about someone saying "You do it now!" and it being done. Legality should be provided or there's hell to pay later, but this is more about actual day-to-day business than legislation, which is really just abstractly dealing with potential situations.

And if England wants to close borders, immigration aside, someone has to actually make the order. And that's your executive body, whoever that is, I'm assuming Cameron and his ministers.

The other poster said that Merkel could authorise Germany to open their borders without the consent of the German Parliament, but I do not believe that our Prime Minister has that authority. I am not even sure he can legally close them unless in an emergency.

Authorising a border free-for-all that bypasses things like visa requirements seems beyond the powers of the Prime Minister and into Parliament territory.

[ranzino]

The BBC will be covering it, I'm assuming that means bbc 24. 4am (GMT+1) for Turnout, 5am for Scotland's results, between 6-7am for Englands.


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thx for info. now we ( as europenans outside of UK ) have to wait too ....