[LEGION] Windwalker Discussion

[Arthael]

not sure where to ask this, but the people here have been quite helpful so i'm choosing to ask here.

http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...be00735b5b6209
why is it that rogue's have such high DPS during AOE fights? granted i never did iskar but I watched a video and it seems AOE heavy.

on the contrary, a current Unholy DK which is known for intense AOE, is not doing as much: http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...1a9571152401f1

anyone explain what's going on here? did I sim incorrectly?

Eh. The template rotations are very barebones and doesn't consider optimal use of anything (which is pretty much why any flat damage/passive damage > CD in talents in most cases).
If you really want to play with it, you gotta construct a rotation with all conditions listed out, in the right order and cooldowns micro-managed per scenario (opener, middle, CD stacking etc)

I mean the best feral DPS sim using template is with Soul of the Forest, Sabertooth and Moment of Clarity. >.>.

[Babylonius]

not sure where to ask this, but the people here have been quite helpful so i'm choosing to ask here.

http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...be00735b5b6209
why is it that rogue's have such high DPS during AOE fights? granted i never did iskar but I watched a video and it seems AOE heavy.

on the contrary, a current Unholy DK which is known for intense AOE, is not doing as much: http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...1a9571152401f1

anyone explain what's going on here? did I sim incorrectly?

AMR's Simulator hasn't been out for more than a few days. Most of the best theorycrafters use SimCraft and haven't spent any time on AMR. It may seem like it's easier to use, but it currently doesn't function as well as SimCraft. For the time being, don't pay AMR's simulator any attention, it's not ready.

If you want to take the time to test all available rotations with both classes to find what's best then go ahead, but from experience and talking to the others who do this kind of thing, AMR's tool is not correct in many many situations.

If you want to compare the DPS of those two specs then look at already established logs on WCL, not a tool that's been out for a few days and not verified by the people who do this sort of thing.

As a side note, your post has nothing to do with Windwalker, so it doesn't belong on the Windwalker thread. AMR have their own forums where you may get better discussion about their tool.

[Shoeboots]

I've been levelling my monk on beta the last couple nights and can definitely confirm FoF is stunning targets. I'm really hoping this is intended, as it makes a night and day difference in addressing the overall squishiness of the spec. It was actually.... fun!

I've posted some pretty surly comments about the direction of windwalker on this thread over the past few months. At the end of the day I'm really unhappy about what happened with SEF and find the tab targeting for SCK to be dismal. However, they are effective. I only did two dungeons while levelling but I dominated the charts in both runs. Granted, it's a small sample, but it's promising.

I'm still not sure what to make of this spec... But if I pretend its something new and don't focus on what we lost, it is relatively fun and at least currently is very functional. Needs to keep that stun though. Or we just get destroyed.

[Creatinebrah]

AMR's Simulator hasn't been out for more than a few days. Most of the best theorycrafters use SimCraft and haven't spent any time on AMR. It may seem like it's easier to use, but it currently doesn't function as well as SimCraft. For the time being, don't pay AMR's simulator any attention, it's not ready.

If you want to take the time to test all available rotations with both classes to find what's best then go ahead, but from experience and talking to the others who do this kind of thing, AMR's tool is not correct in many many situations.

If you want to compare the DPS of those two specs then look at already established logs on WCL, not a tool that's been out for a few days and not verified by the people who do this sort of thing.

As a side note, your post has nothing to do with Windwalker, so it doesn't belong on the Windwalker thread. AMR have their own forums where you may get better discussion about their tool.

thanks, much appreciated

I've been levelling my monk on beta the last couple nights and can definitely confirm FoF is stunning targets. I'm really hoping this is intended, as it makes a night and day difference in addressing the overall squishiness of the spec. It was actually.... fun!

I've posted some pretty surly comments about the direction of windwalker on this thread over the past few months. At the end of the day I'm really unhappy about what happened with SEF and find the tab targeting for SCK to be dismal. However, they are effective. I only did two dungeons while levelling but I dominated the charts in both runs. Granted, it's a small sample, but it's promising.

I'm still not sure what to make of this spec... But if I pretend its something new and don't focus on what we lost, it is relatively fun and at least currently is very functional. Needs to keep that stun though. Or we just get destroyed.

i was leveling before it was stun baseline and you're right, the difference is phenomenal. i really hope it's baseline now as well. baseline stun would mean they are a huge asset in mythic dungeons

[Zoopercat]

Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. Contrary to what Babylonius said, the AMR simulator IS good. The statement that you shouldn't use a tool "not verfied by the people who do this sort of thing" - is wrong. We had a lot of the top theorycrafters, some of the SimC devs themselves, and some of the world first mythic guilds playing with the WoD test version for the past month. We also have been talking with the main developer of SimC (Navv) about different ways to work togeht people can use both and verify both. He's very supportive of our project. The end result: the simulation engine is SOLID.

So while the beta has only been out for a few days (and yes, there are definitely some bugs with spell implementation, and rotations need to be optimized), the actual simulator has been tested really hard for a month

So when Babylonius says, "AMR's tool is not correct in many situations," he's referring to a spell bug, or a non-optimal rotation. We have an update going out in about an hour with fixes to all bugs that have been reported yesterday. And a lot of people are working on rotation improvements with us, yay!

The AMR simulator is just as far along (or more so) than SimC for Legion. But it is still very early so take results from both either a grain of salt. And for those interested in working on SimC code OR rotations (you can do rotations without knowing how to code), hit them up in their IRC.

I hope that clears a few things up! I'm happy to help answer any questions people might have (discord / forums). I hope I sounded helpful and not defensive, but I wanted to correct any misinformation out there

[Lucrece]

I'm still holding out hope they realise how pathetic Windwalker survival and defensives are. As in, we're getting steamrolled by even nerfed demonhunters, who have pretty crappy defensives themselves.

I don't see the point of a WW monk in PvP over a rogue, ever. And that might even apply to PvE.

Why did they nerf Diffuse Magic, which was already weaker than CloS, and CloS got left intact?

Why is it that we need to talent into a 15% heal with 2 charges on 30 sec generation time, when a rogue gets a 30% BASELINE every 30 secs?

Why do rogues get a 100% evade, a vanish with temporary immunity, CloS, and Crimson Vial without having to talent into any one of them? All we got is Touch of Karma, which is so easily nullified in PvP.

Buff Effuse and make it instant for every 4 chi spent....

[Creatinebrah]

Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. Contrary to what Babylonius said, the AMR simulator IS good. The statement that you shouldn't use a tool "not verfied by the people who do this sort of thing" - is wrong. We had a lot of the top theorycrafters, some of the SimC devs themselves, and some of the world first mythic guilds playing with the WoD test version for the past month. We also have been talking with the main developer of SimC (Navv) about different ways to work togeht people can use both and verify both. He's very supportive of our project. The end result: the simulation engine is SOLID.

So while the beta has only been out for a few days (and yes, there are definitely some bugs with spell implementation, and rotations need to be optimized), the actual simulator has been tested really hard for a month

So when Babylonius says, "AMR's tool is not correct in many situations," he's referring to a spell bug, or a non-optimal rotation. We have an update going out in about an hour with fixes to all bugs that have been reported yesterday. And a lot of people are working on rotation improvements with us, yay!

The AMR simulator is just as far along (or more so) than SimC for Legion. But it is still very early so take results from both either a grain of salt. And for those interested in working on SimC code OR rotations (you can do rotations without knowing how to code), hit them up in their IRC.

I hope that clears a few things up! I'm happy to help answer any questions people might have (discord / forums). I hope I sounded helpful and not defensive, but I wanted to correct any misinformation out there

thanks!

while we have you here, i wanted to ask a quick question. is there a way to add a preset to equip 840-850ilvl (or any time level) so i don't have to manually add that gear on each spec for testing?

[Shoeboots]

I'm still holding out hope they realise how pathetic Windwalker survival and defensives are. As in, we're getting steamrolled by even nerfed demonhunters, who have pretty crappy defensives themselves.

I don't see the point of a WW monk in PvP over a rogue, ever. And that might even apply to PvE.

Why did they nerf Diffuse Magic, which was already weaker than CloS, and CloS got left intact?

Why is it that we need to talent into a 15% heal with 2 charges on 30 sec generation time, when a rogue gets a 30% BASELINE every 30 secs?

Why do rogues get a 100% evade, a vanish with temporary immunity, CloS, and Crimson Vial without having to talent into any one of them? All we got is Touch of Karma, which is so easily nullified in PvP.

Buff Effuse and make it instant for every 4 chi spent....

I think if they keep stun baseline for FoF, this will go a long way to put us on even footing with other melee specs in PVP. It certainly makes a world of difference for PVE, especially solo content. Otherwise it's my intention to just switch to Brewmaster for PVP as I hear they are doing really well so far (fingers crossed).

[Lucrece]

I think if they keep stun baseline for FoF, this will go a long way to put us on even footing with other melee specs in PVP. It certainly makes a world of difference for PVE, especially solo content. Otherwise it's my intention to just switch to Brewmaster for PVP as I hear they are doing really well so far (fingers crossed).

That just DR's with leg sweep, which we were already using to land FoF. FoF is melee range and it's not negating any ranged damage or damage done to you while stunned or magic damage. If 2 other targets are tunneling you, FoF won't really save you unless the two targets happen to be 2 melee that choose to stand in a cone in front of you.

Granted stun on FoF will translate well for PvE.

But for PvP it just isn't enough.

[Shoeboots]

That just DR's with leg sweep, which we were already using to land FoF. FoF is melee range and it's not negating any ranged damage or damage done to you while stunned or magic damage. If 2 other targets are tunneling you, FoF won't really save you unless the two targets happen to be 2 melee that choose to stand in a cone in front of you.

Granted stun on FoF will translate well for PvE.

But for PvP it just isn't enough.

I suppose the X factor is SEF's interaction with stun. In theory they could be stunning ranged targets although it's a crap shoot without being able to tell them what to attack.

[Zoopercat]

@tangosmango - no, there isn't a template (yet). So manual is the only option right now (sorry). Although you can at least save each one after you set it up, and just reload those, so you only have to do it once.

[Creatinebrah]

@tangosmango - no, there isn't a template (yet). So manual is the only option right now (sorry). Although you can at least save each one after you set it up, and just reload those, so you only have to do it once.

cool, thanks for the reply!

[Lucrece]

I suppose the X factor is SEF's interaction with stun. In theory they could be stunning ranged targets although it's a crap shoot without being able to tell them what to attack.

Yeah, well it is silly to have to waste our only actual DPS cooldown as a ghetto form of a defensive one.

[Creatinebrah]

they fixed the green SEF doing FoF!!!

[Arthael]

Are there any initial sims that show if Serenity and SEF baseline do relatively the same amount of damage?

I know Serenity scales hard with haste, because you can fit two fists of fury in one serenity every go; but how does it look at the moment.
The only reason I ask is I am only going to play Monk if Serenity is the option.

[pandanaconda]

Right now its very hard to get a good idea of what serenity's spot is.


Serenity can be INCREDIBLY powerfull on 3-4 targets, where you'd get the SCK debuff on them easily (without needing SEF to do so) then could do a crazy SCK/serenity spam.


On single target since with a single debuff SCK deals 600% of AP versus 325% for blackoutkick, SCK is the go to filler above that one EVEN ON SINGLE TARGET. That's relatively concerning as too how the spell will work in most situations.


Even if serenity works, right now it is very... unintuitive. Babylonius told me earlier he simmed it to be weaker than the other two talents in combination with double SEF stacks. We sure have some work left to do on optimal single target serenity rotation, but I can't say for sure it won't change or will be optimal single target.
It looks from the outside like it's meant to be optimal on single target but is a messy design and all that came out of it was pretty unintended.

[Arthael]

There's also that legendary for SEF but not Serenity.
Ugh, I am just not entirely a fan of SEF; ah well, maybe things will change.

[TrollShaman]

they fixed the green SEF doing FoF!!!

The Earth Spirit now dual wields maces to make that work lol. Blizz pleeaaase just revert the 2H restriction, it does way more harm than good.

[Ustabil]

There's also that legendary for SEF but not Serenity.
Ugh, I am just not entirely a fan of SEF; ah well, maybe things will change.

This iteration of SEF wont change untill next exansion maybe. But we should voice our opinion of SEF so that the WW monk dev might realize that it doesnt bring much to the class fantasy, i cant be the only WW monk that wish we had more Xuen influense in our class. Xuen was the reason i tried out WW in the first place

[Basilmoyh]

Is Chi Orbit still in Legion Beta? Because that's amazing if it still is.