Protection legion Discussion

[Invrlose]

I'm just gonna ignore you like it was previously done, since your main purpose here is trolling. Bye, ; )

I'm the troll? Says the guy who can't go more than 2 posts without getting upset.

[Exer]

I'm just gonna ignore you like it was previously done, since your main purpose here is trolling. Bye, ; )

Your last couple posts really make you look like a fool. His points are extremely valid. It's just so obvious you have a grudge against him.

We should be focusing on the larger issues with RFDT: issues with gear scaling throughout a tier, issues with rage gen while off-tanking, issues with a lucky streak of blocks screwing your rage, etc.

Who are you to dictate what should and shouldn't be discussed on a game's fan site? Or do you perhaps think blizzard gives a damn about a random discussion on a website called MMO-Champion? Don't be naive. People have pointed out major issues on the official testing forum without getting any feedback, so be reassured that the discussion ongoing right here serves merely as an entertainment for those interested by this sort of discussions (or "nitpicking" to put it in your own words).

Also, you claim it would more productive to discuss things like "lucky streaks of blocks screwing up one's Rage gen" or "Rage gen while of tanking", without realizing that these topics are just as nitpicky as the recent discussion, because the numbers involved are just as "insignificant".

This makes me wonder what's the point you're actually trying to make, or whether you even have a point to begin with...

Those are NOT nitpicky topics; you will have to deal with these on every single multi-tank encounters. How can you claim the broken concept of RFDT is "insignificant'? THe examples he listed are all consequences of that system, and worries me much more than trying to dissect the 1 rage/2% hp concept. I am pretty sure no one will notice that fractual gain in a mythic+/raiding environment. However, the feeling of gaining no rage will much more noticeable.

[Murlocbait]

This makes me wonder what's the point you're actually trying to make, or whether you even have a point to begin with...

I thought my point was pretty clear, but perhaps it was lost in the post. My point was that Mr. Now-Banned was derailing the thread by dragging it down into misconception and side-tracked debates about 0.01% or 0.5% damage, etc. Which takes attention away from larger issues that are more important for the class - in fact,no one was complaining about what happens when you take less than 1% damage, but rather discussing it to make sure everyone understood how it worked. It's not my job to tell people what to discuss, but I just wanted to point out that he was a useless troll and not actually having a productive conversation.

[Deleted]

Your last couple posts really make you look like a fool. His points are extremely valid. It's just so obvious you have a grudge against him.



Those are NOT nitpicky topics; you will have to deal with these on every single multi-tank encounters. How can you claim the broken concept of RFDT is "insignificant'? THe examples he listed are all consequences of that system, and worries me much more than trying to dissect the 1 rage/2% hp concept. I am pretty sure no one will notice that fractual gain in a mythic+/raiding environment. However, the feeling of gaining no rage will much more noticeable.

Okay, you're right : )

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I thought my point was pretty clear, but perhaps it was lost in the post. My point was that Mr. Now-Banned was derailing the thread by dragging it down into misconception and side-tracked debates about 0.01% or 0.5% damage, etc. Which takes attention away from larger issues that are more important for the class - in fact,no one was complaining about what happens when you take less than 1% damage, but rather discussing it to make sure everyone understood how it worked. It's not my job to tell people what to discuss, but I just wanted to point out that he was a useless troll and not actually having a productive conversation.

I see. What bothered me the most in your post was actually your few examples. I can imagine topics that might be considered of a higher importance than figuring out the ignored bit of a hit in the RFDT calculation (even though, I'm personally very curious in figuring that out, and to clarify things, that's what was being discussed => the ignored damage of a hit in the RFDT calculation, nothing else).

However, those topics of a higher importance wouldn't be Rage loss due to lucky streaks of blocks (for a lot of obvious reasons), or RPS while off tanking (how much use do you have for Rage while of tanking? You will at best be able to spam FS, and that's it...), and regarding your last example, I can see how gear scaling will become a problem, but that bit has been discussed countless times already, so what's the point in restarting that debate?

Also, last I checked, this thread was called "Protection Legion Discussion", not "Protection Legion Beta Crucial Feedback That Will Never Get To Blizzard".

My point is, as far as a discussion is on topic and civil, it's actually quite rude to come spit out stuff like "hey, you shouldn't be talking about this or that because it's unimportant..." especially when there isn't any real basis to back that rude claim.

[Moggers1990]

Okay, you're right : )

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However, those topics of a higher importance wouldn't be Rage loss due to lucky streaks of blocks (for a lot of obvious reasons), or RPS while off tanking (how much use do you have for Rage while of tanking? You will at best be able to spam FS, and that's it...)

I'm way more concerned with the fact that getting (un)lucky streaks of dodges or parrys causes us to generate less rage and also the rage generated while off-tanking than the loss of the odd point of rage when not being hit for a full 2% HP.

The main issue i have is timings. Yes, bossmods exist to know exactly when abilities come in. But if ~5 seconds or so before the "Big boss attack" comes in we have to suddenly use our rage for a Shield Block and an Ignore Pain (sudden raid damage etc) leaving us with no rage and Shield Slam/Revenge on cooldown, then we dodge/parry the next 2-3 boss hits we won't have the rage to Ignore Pain the boss attack. This can happen. And it's poor design.

Then with off-tanking. I like to feel i'm doing something while not tanking, even if it is just a little bit of DPS. Currently you may aswell just AFK until you need to taunt back.
Also, think of bosses like Mannoroth, needing to generate rage to get Block and Ignore Pain up before you taunt the combo. With only Shield Slam/Revenge rage you'll have to bank up rage way in advance of actually needing to taunt, unable to spend any. Which is as boring as crusty tissues and then asks the question. With this current rage system, what the fuck is the point of Focused Rage?

[Deleted]

Also, think of bosses like Mannoroth, needing to generate rage to get Block and Ignore Pain up before you taunt the combo. With only Shield Slam/Revenge rage you'll have to bank up rage way in advance of actually needing to taunt, unable to spend any. Which is as boring as crusty tissues and then asks the question.

I'm sure you're aware that 1 IP + 1SB cost less than half of what 1SBar + 1SB costed in WoD, right? This alone makes your argument unfounded, since 1 Shield Slam + 1 Revenge will generate 20 Rage. And I'm not even taking into account any raid damage you'll be taking as well while off tanking.

[Murlocbait]

Also, last I checked, this thread was called "Protection Legion Discussion", not "Protection Legion Beta Crucial Feedback That Will Never Get To Blizzard".

My point is, as far as a discussion is on topic and civil, it's actually quite rude to come spit out stuff like "hey, you shouldn't be talking about this or that because it's unimportant..." especially when there isn't any real basis to back that rude claim.

I was never trying to tell people what they should and should not discuss. I found the discussion about damage/rage break points interesting, even if it's something that will probably never impact me if i was to tank as a Prot warrior because it's such a minor thing. My point only ever was about the people who come in here, see a discussion on the minutia of the mechanics, and reply with things like "Lulz, stop whining, you'll be fine!" (made-up example, but not far from what i've seen many times). THEN, people engage with the troll and start arguing, taking the subject off topic, rather than ignoring the person and keeping the conversation productive and interesting. But, the situation seems to have resolved itself so i'll stop going further off-topic (because sometimes i'm a hypocrite).

On topic, it seems like a lot of issues could be resolved if there was more clarity on Blizz's part. Unless I'm mistaken, you can't find out how rage gen specifically works with regard to taking damage unless you go outside of the game and find the formula. That just seems like a recipe for confusion all throughout Legion, and that doesn't seem like an isolated incident. More transparency could probably help with a lot of these problems and debates. But it seems like Blizz wants gameplay mechanics to be more and more opaque.

[Moggers1990]

I'm sure you're aware that 1 IP + 1SB cost less than half of what 1SBar + 1SB costed in WoD, right? This alone makes your argument unfounded, since 1 Shield Slam + 1 Revenge will generate 20 Rage. And I'm not even taking into account any raid damage you'll be taking as well while off tanking.

Except currently you generate double that, and it's guaranteed, with shorter CD's on Revenge/Shield Slam. Not including Enrage procs. It's insanely easy to quickly generate at least 80 rage on live now to get a Shield Block and a Barrier up.
And raid damage only comes in for periods at a time, and if it is constant then it's not high damage. Am i supposed to wait for major raid damage phases to bother trying to stack up Focused Rage?

It may be a game, but i've never really fancied playing the Resource Lottery.


I don't want to come across as i'm just arguing with you and bitching over the system, because it might turn out ok.. ish. It's just after doing numerous dungeons on my copied Warrior on the PTR and on a fresh beta character i don't have any faith that it will work at all in it's current state. And now we can't say the Artifact will fix that, because they removed any rage generation from the traits.

[Deleted]

I was never trying to tell people what they should and should not discuss. I found the discussion about damage/rage break points interesting, even if it's something that will probably never impact me if i was to tank as a Prot warrior because it's such a minor thing. My point only ever was about the people who come in here, see a discussion on the minutia of the mechanics, and reply with things like "Lulz, stop whining, you'll be fine!" (made-up example, but not far from what i've seen many times). THEN, people engage with the troll and start arguing, taking the subject off topic, rather than ignoring the person and keeping the conversation productive and interesting. But, the situation seems to have resolved itself so i'll stop going further off-topic (because sometimes i'm a hypocrite).

On topic, it seems like a lot of issues could be resolved if there was more clarity on Blizz's part. Unless I'm mistaken, you can't find out how rage gen specifically works with regard to taking damage unless you go outside of the game and find the formula. That just seems like a recipe for confusion all throughout Legion, and that doesn't seem like an isolated incident. More transparency could probably help with a lot of these problems and debates. But it seems like Blizz wants gameplay mechanics to be more and more opaque.

Not sure how I got so deep into this silly argument myself, but whatever..

Who knows why they are keeping most of the mechanics in the dark really. Perhaps, they are just afraid we'd figure out too easily all the mess that's actually going on. Take the weird IP cap for example, I wouldn't be surprise if most abilities actually worked with a similar non intuitive and weird functioning.

I don't want to come across as i'm just arguing with you and bitching over the system, because it might turn out ok.. ish. It's just after doing numerous dungeons on my copied Warrior on the PTR and on a fresh beta character i don't have any faith that it will work at all in it's current state. And now we can't say the Artifact will fix that, because they removed any rage generation from the traits.

So you did some off tanking in dungeons then? : ) I'm the first to say things are looking pretty bad, to the point of seriously considering rolling a DH after 9 years of maining a Prot War, but my reasons seem to differ quite a bit from yours. Let's just leave it at that.

[Bytch]

Just got myself on ptr. What's the line up for talents as prot?

[Beardyface]

Just got myself on ptr. What's the line up for talents as prot?

I've just worked 45 hours in three days, so I haven't had the time to run the math on any of this yet and my beard hurts, so this is just by feel.

For me, there are two Prot builds right now:

1. http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...rotection/MFpz

You can run Crackling Thunder if you want instead of Bounding Stride. Can be useful on some trash pulls here and there, but bounding stride is going to be more useful overall. InsP is super strong right now in dungeons, though I'd probably replace InsP with Safeguard for raiding. This build is what I'll likely run with for raids unless the numbers swing heavily towards this build:

2. http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...rotection/MLHz

The interplay between Into the Fray and Heavy Repercussions is strong. It may be possible late expansion to hit 100% SB uptime with ItF, HR and enough Haste, though I'd honestly be surprised if Blizz let us become unhittable again. My guess is a fresh level 110 toon will get more out of ItF than one in full T19 heroic gear or greater. The Ultimatum/Vengeance combo will likely become stronger mid expansion, and if becoming unhittable is actually possible, ItF will be stronger again late expansion. Ultimatium and Vengenace are very weak on their own, so once you take ItF, there's no point in taking Ultimatum. Anger Management and Ravager may have niche uses, but HR is so strong for pure survivability I can't imagine not taking it for nearly every encounter.

Again, these are just best guesses. Will need lots more data to be sure.

[Alaexaender]

Has anyone tested how useful the tier set is on us? (both the 20% increased block, and the 5 rage)

[maverick1625]

Stop comparing live to the new Legion Prot Warrior model plz, it's not even the same even though it might seem similar. Shield block is much more effective in Legion, especially crit block taking into account artifact talents, as you can keep it up more effectively when you talent into Heavy Rep. Also Ignore Pain is much more potent than Barrier as it can be stacked, & if you're using the talent Never Surrender it's even more powerful as it allows you to comfortably sit at lower HP knowing you're producing double the shields, that's not even taking into account the artifact talents. I've watched many prot warriors in vids sit at almost rage cap, yet they're sitting at 50-70% HP & they allow Ignore Pain to drop off. What's the point in sitting on that rage now, Ignore Pain stacks, so you might as well pool that rage and gain potent shields. If you're playing smart, Ultimatum & Vengeance talents also synergies well where you can rlly utilize the procs effectively to be even more effective.

Shield Block only costing 10rage, Revenge & SS alone generates 20rage, then take into account RFDT, on top of that we still proc Revenge through Dodge/Parry & SS through Devastate procs. This is not even including rage gain through talents. I fail to understand how some people are even comparing this RFTD model to the old school prot warrior, it's not the same at all!

If you're off tanking yes I can see abit of frustration, but if you're not dumping rage into your defensive abilities, then you're dumping it into Focused Rage stacks, coupled with using Battle Cry to guarantee another FR proc [If you're talented into Ultimatum]. if you're not using Ultimatum, then you can talent into Renewed Fury and keep stacking up Ignore Pain & gain that 10% constant increase to your DMG. The Prot Warrior plays somewhat similar to live but doesn't, it's the same for every other tank. I am interested to see what Blizzard does with our rage gain closer towards Legion, if anything at all since it seem so many complaining about it. Learning how to utilize x talent with x ability or x talent with x build is the new model of tanking, they all synergies. If you can't wrap your head around this, then well... start learning

[Vestig3]

I did consider rerolling to a Druid or DH but then after watching some logs and checking on some info and feedback from some guildies i decided to stay with warrior as it seems we will be fine and its not as dramatic as people make it to be.

[Bethrezen]

After playing on the PTR if my full mythic tier geared warrior, I am set in my mindset of still to Warrior Prot for my MTing life of choice. The 'old school' model of RFTD is indeed there, but it's not exactly the same. It's blended well with the WoD resources gen model ontop of it with whats mentioned before for past couple posts, new blends of talents requiring experimentation to fine the niche synergizing. It's change, it's new, not all of us will like it, but I can understand now what Blizzards trying to go for. It'll certainly keep my attention for the most part to learn the new, instead of a same ol, same ol model of tanking WoD style.

I'm looking forward to it.

[Breccia]

I'm looking forward to it.

I'm glad it feels fun. Whether I enter Legion or not, I'm happy with my main spec at least being fun enough to play. It's not the only issue, but the most important one.

The mechanical issues -- such as the glaring scaling issue, which is impossible to test since the second and final (admit it) hasn't been made yet -- will have to wait.

[Shenkz]

Anyone in this thread actually doing mythic raid testing on beta as prot warrior can give some insight on the current state of the spec?

[Beardyface]

Neat.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745744692#18

[Deleted]

Neat.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745744692#18

..................

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TL;DR
They are significantly reducing the in game camera max zoom out.

[Coffeh]

Does the 'Inspiring Presence' talent, which grants 3% leach to allies, also apply to the prot warrior? Or do just your allies get that leach effect? So if you're playing solo the talent would do absolutely nothing for you?

To answer my own question, now that I can get on the ptr...yes, your own Inspiring Presence does heal you.

On an unrelated note, testing prot warrior is painful with the new rage mechanic. Obviously too late for them to change it, but generating rage by taking damage is so very bad.