wealth inequality

[Tijuana]

The baseline of negotiation in a given market is the market. If an unskilled laborer makes X, and your skills make you worth Y more, then you can negotiate a salary of X+Y.

If X is then changed to X+20, then your skills haven't changed, and you can negotiate (X+20)+Y, because that baseline changed.

If the cheapest ice cream on the boardwalk is $2, but mine's awesome and I can charge $3, then if the cheap guy can raise his price to $3 and stay in business, my higher-quality product means I should be able to raise my price to $4 and maintain market share.

You left out the factors for how many workers. Even in the current climate, if we wiped out a couple hundred thousand, the bargaining position would be greatly increased. We need to find a way to tip the scales, and I hate to say it but...there IS a certain large group of humans working in the US that have questionable rights to do so. Just sayin...

[Glorious Leader]

You left out the factors for how many workers. Even in the current climate, if we wiped out a couple hundred thousand, the bargaining position would be greatly increased. We need to find a way to tip the scales, and I hate to say it but...there IS a certain large group of humans working in the US that have questionable rights to do so. Just sayin...

I'm curious who do you think hired those people? Obama? What happened to no illegal activity from business? Somebody is hiring those people..

[Tijuana]

We can all agree stagnation is the problem- let's talk solutions. According to you, where does growth come from and how do we increase it?

It comes from increased demand for goods and services, as well as increased prices for good and services. You can't really legislate growth to happen, but you very much CAN legislate things that hinder growth, such as Obamacare. Like it or not, there can be no denying that it's a massive new burden to employers at nearly the worst possible moment.

[Theodarzna]

You left out the factors for how many workers. Even in the current climate, if we wiped out a couple hundred thousand, the bargaining position would be greatly increased. We need to find a way to tip the scales, and I hate to say it but...there IS a certain large group of humans working in the US that have questionable rights to do so. Just sayin...

That is a feature not a bug. Neo-Liberal capitalist societies curiously do not reproduce at a rate necessary to sustain a consumer economy at levels the power class prefers. Those people are perfect, they have no rights, help inflate property values and rents, and keep wages low so a small clique can live ever so delicious lives.

[Tijuana]

I am completely opposed to your views here abd am also extremely anti SJW in fact in several subjects Endus and I are on totally opposite sides and I shake my head wondering the f.

On this issue we agree however.

You are seeing politics as binary and nit really looking outside your bubble

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Another perk coukd be more philosophy and other similar things. Artists cab create art philosophers can think anf ponder scientists ir amateur inventors can invent and research

Full democracy could become possible
Frankly without the NEED to work alot of near dead fields could open up

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Can you flesh that out a bit more?

[Cthulhu 2020]

Batman, you are so partisan that you always assume everyone else is also. I have been saying for pages and pages that the issue is bigger than minimum wage. I have been saying for pages and pages economic stagnation is the real issue. You took a nuanced point that was a rebuttal to another nuanced point, and are trying to extrapolate out to a position I don't even hold, all the while my actual position is in print, repeatedly, in the same thread you are reading. GG

I'm confused, why do you keep telling people to make themselves more marketable then?

Your partisanship is also showing. You blame Obama for the economy... an economy that was the result of a bubble burst you know happened in 2007. The ACA didn't come at the best time but it certainly hasn't hindered growth nearly as much as you like to pretend it did.

[Theodarzna]

We can all agree stagnation is the problem- let's talk solutions. According to you, where does growth come from and how do we increase it?

Growth comes from people and or new markets. The problem? We've as a species started unwinding and aging and our planet kind needs us to curb our population. And unfortunately there are no moon men or martians who want the new iPhone.

[Gestopft]

You left out the factors for how many workers. Even in the current climate, if we wiped out a couple hundred thousand, the bargaining position would be greatly increased. We need to find a way to tip the scales, and I hate to say it but...there IS a certain large group of humans working in the US that have questionable rights to do so. Just sayin...

(Leaving the last part aside for another thread) As technology increases productivity, the scales are only going to continue to tilt away from the workers. As long as technological progress reduced the need for labor, the market isn't going to provide a favorable bargaining position for workers. Only government policy or collective bargaining will.

[Tijuana]

I'm curious who do you think hired those people? Obama? What happened to no illegal activity from business? Somebody is hiring those people..

See, this is where you SJWs get lost. I'm not all in emotionally for one partisan side. So, I may be hard for you to figure out. The people that are hiring illegal aliens are breaking the law and it is wrong. I am not engaging in any us vs them, good guys vs bad guys stuff you guys are all about. If laws are broken, those who did it should be punished.

What my point was, to put in your terms, someone has that job. We have too many workers. Do the math.

[Theinquisition]

I don't understand why people care so much about it if not everyone has the same amount of money, work harder if you want more money

so much this.

Seriously, at the end of the day, how is it anyone else's business how much someone makes?

[Glorious Leader]

See, this is where you SJWs get lost. I'm not all in emotionally for one partisan side. So, I may be hard for you to figure out. The people that are hiring illegal aliens are breaking the law and it is wrong. I am not engaging in any us vs them, good guys vs bad guys stuff you guys are all about. If laws are broken, those who did it should be punished.

What my point was, to put in your terms, someone has that job. We have too many workers. Do the math.

The point that you managed to miss in favor of blind "anti sjw" rhetoric is that capital will actively seek the lowest price for labor at the expense of labor. Too many workers is precisely what capital likes because it ultimately DISCIPLINES labor, it's called the reserve army of labor and the fact that you acknowledge it without recognizing it is hilarious. It's endemic to capitalism and It's also a core of Marxian analysis of capitalism. .

[Theinquisition]

Growth comes from people and or new markets. The problem? We've as a species started unwinding and aging and our planet kind needs us to curb our population. And unfortunately there are no moon men or martians who want the new iPhone.

how would you propose "curbing" the population?

[Cthulhu 2020]

I'm curious who do you think hired those people? Obama? What happened to no illegal activity from business? Somebody is hiring those people..

It's not real use, they say "Oh yeah I want to punish them too" then go right back to NEVER mentioning punishing businesses, while coming up with 101 ways to punish, stop, or harm illegals.

[Tijuana]

I'm confused, why do you keep telling people to make themselves more marketable then?

Your partisanship is also showing. You blame Obama for the economy... an economy that was the result of a bubble burst you know happened in 2007. The ACA didn't come at the best time but it certainly hasn't hindered growth nearly as much as you like to pretend it did.

I don't blame Obama for the recession. I blame him for over seeing the lowest recovery and lowest growth in history. It doesn't matter where he started, it matters where he ended up. The fact that he started with a huge loss happening just before he took over, and still grew the slowest, makes your case for him WORSE, not better. If he simply recovered what was lost shortly before he took over, that's instant huge gains.

The fact that you think the ACA hurt us, but not as much as I think it has, is the least partisan thing I have ever heard you say here. I'm tearing up a bit with pride.

[Glorious Leader]

It's not real use, they say "Oh yeah I want to punish them too" then go right back to NEVER mentioning punishing businesses, while coming up with 101 ways to punish, stop, or harm illegals.

Yea I mean they never get to the root of it. It's punish the illegals and the people back home but NEVER the ones who offer them the job here in the first place.

[Theinquisition]

Yea I mean they never get to the root of it. It's punish the illegals and the people back home but NEVER the ones who offer them the job here in the first place.

if I remember correctly there are penalties in place to punish employers who hire illegals.

[Glorious Leader]

It doesn't matter where he started, it matters where he ended up.

That's amusing. I mean we could dismiss so much from history with this. 30 years of Reaganomics, deregulating markets, "free trade" out the fucking window. Nope it's Obumbas fault LOL I mean how much more fucking partisan can you be. You're worse than Hanity. Hanity made that exact same point in the first year under Obama. Never mind bush, never mind iraq/afghanist, never mind the great recession IT"S OBUMMER!!! DEY DOOK IR JOBZZZ

[Tijuana]

The point that you managed to miss in favor of blind "anti sjw" rhetoric is that capital will actively seek the lowest price for labor at the expense of labor. Too many workers is precisely what capital likes because it ultimately DISCIPLINES labor, it's called the reserve army of labor and the fact that you acknowledge it without recognizing it is hilarious. It's endemic to capitalism and It's also a core of Marxian analysis of capitalism. .

YES! You are saying EXACTLY what I have been saying all along: cheapskate employers are a constant throughout history and therefore not the variable that caused us to deter from the norm.

But, no, this is not endemic of capitalism, quite the contrary in fact. If real capitalism is allowed to occur, the supply and demand of labor can function properly. It's the crony capitalism, which is really something other than capitalism, that causes the issues you speak of.

[Berengil]

It's almost like it's a problem that has been snowballing for 30 years and most of us are getting real tired of the bootstraps rhetoric instead of working towards making the lives of our neighbors less shitty. It'll suck for those that find their only worth from how much better they are doing than the guy below them, but there's very little tears being shed for these types.

Well said. 100% agree.

Also:

" It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." ----- Jesus Christ

[Cthulhu 2020]

I don't blame Obama for the recession. I blame him for over seeing the lowest recovery and lowest growth in history. It doesn't matter where he started, it matters where he ended up. The fact that he started with a huge loss happening just before he took over, and still grew the slowest, makes your case for him WORSE, not better. If he simply recovered what was lost shortly before he took over, that's instant huge gains.

The fact that you think the ACA hurt us, but not as much as I think it has, is the least partisan thing I have ever heard you say here. I'm tearing up a bit with pride.

Job growth is back to pre-recession rates, not sure where you're getting that he's been the worst evar. Growth of the stock market means nothing to 80% of the population, and almost nothing to another 19%. How much more Sam Walton is worth matters about as much to a poor person as the shit stains on my toilet paper mean to you.