wealth inequality

[Berengil]

YES! You are saying EXACTLY what I have been saying all along: cheapskate employers are a constant throughout history and therefore not the variable that caused us to deter from the norm.

But, no, this is not endemic of capitalism, quite the contrary in fact. If real capitalism is allowed to occur, the supply and demand of labor can function properly. It's the crony capitalism, which is really something other than capitalism, that causes the issues you speak of.

If the cheapskate employers are the problem, maybe the working class should demand laws that prevent such behavior?

[Tijuana]

Yea I mean they never get to the root of it. It's punish the illegals and the people back home but NEVER the ones who offer them the job here in the first place.

You are confusing conservatives, who are pro-business, with business. Your notion that the right side of the aisle is not the law an order side is...bizarre.

In fact, you have this so wrong its a little offensive to be honest. I think illegal immigration is a problem. But I don't think the actual people are a problem. As far as immigrants go, the US has the best in the world. But, just because we feel for the plight of the illegal alien, does not mean that the only solution is to let everyone else suffer too.

[Theinquisition]

You are confusing conservatives, who are pro-business, with business. Your notion that the right side of the aisle is not the law an order side is...bizarre.

Indeed, I have yet to meet a conservative who is against laws that penalize employers who hire illegals.

[Berengil]

Job growth is back to pre-recession rates, not sure where you're getting that he's been the worst evar. Growth of the stock market means nothing to 80% of the population, and almost nothing to another 19%. How much more Sam Walton is worth matters about as much to a poor person as the shit stains on my toilet paper mean to you.

Love that last sentence, Batsy. 10/10

[Cthulhu 2020]

if I remember correctly there are penalties in place to punish employers who hire illegals.

And they're almost never enforced, yet our deportation forces are working overtime and people insist we need to hire more border security, more people to find and deport, etc.

The amount of shits conservatives give about punishing businesses for hiring illegals is about as close to zero as you can get without actually being zero. Punishing businesses goes against some switch in their head that says they shalt never think of harming business. There's been no calls to tear down the people who actually make coming to the US desirable for undocumented migrants, and yet the things they say about doing to those migrants themselves... oh boy.

[Theinquisition]

Love that last sentence, Batsy. 10/10

well to be honest, it definitely seems like many on the left in MOC care what Sam Walton makes.

[Tijuana]

Job growth is back to pre-recession rates, not sure where you're getting that he's been the worst evar. Growth of the stock market means nothing to 80% of the population, and almost nothing to another 19%. How much more Sam Walton is worth matters about as much to a poor person as the shit stains on my toilet paper mean to you.

GDP. The figure is GDP. Obama has over seen the worst economic growth of any president in history, including the ones who only served 4 years. Is that 100% his fault, no not really. But the fact remains, we are currently in the worst growth period since the great depression, and that is the root of our problems in regards to jobs and wages.

[Glorious Leader]

YES! You are saying EXACTLY what I have been saying all along: cheapskate employers are a constant throughout history and therefore not the variable that caused us to deter from the norm.

But, no, this is not endemic of capitalism, quite the contrary in fact. If real capitalism is allowed to occur, the supply and demand of labor can function properly. It's the crony capitalism, which is really something other than capitalism, that causes the issues you speak of.

That's acutally not what I'm saying at all. Capitalism is not constant throughout history and neither is employment. People were serfs before they were employees and they were slaves and servants before that. It is precisely endemic of capitalism in that capital will always seek to make profit. Even at the expense of labor. "Cheapskate employers" are not a constant through history, in the marxian analysis they exist in the capitalist phase of society which Marx saw unfolding. Labor is not like any other commodity and the law of supply and demand cannot apply to it. In fact trying to treat it like any form of commodity is a gross injustice. It's fundamentally Inhuman and it kinda makes you a monster sorry. I'll site Polyani quoting Von Mises again:

In human terms such a postulate [of a labour market] implied for the worker extreme instability of earnings, utter absence of professional standards, abject readiness to be shoved and pushed about indiscriminately, complete dependence on the whims of the market. [Ludwig Von] Mises justly argued that if workers ‘did not act as trade unionists, but reduced their demands and changed their locations and occupations according to the labour market, they would eventually find work.’ This sums up the position under a system based on the postulate of the commodity character of labour. It is not for the commodity to decide where it should be offered for sale, to what purpose it should be used, at what price it should be allowed to change hands, and in what manner it should be consumed or destroyed.

[Tijuana]

If the cheapskate employers are the problem, maybe the working class should demand laws that prevent such behavior?

Did you even read what you quoted? I said cheapskate employers are a constant. A constant cannot be the variable that caused us to deviate from the norm.

[Berengil]

well to be honest, it definitely seems like many on the left in MOC care what Sam Walton makes.

I don't imagine that a great many of the working poor ( truly poor) spend a lot of time on mmoc.

Not me anyway. last tax return had me at just a little above the national median income, which is DMN good for w tn.

[Glorious Leader]

You are confusing conservatives, who are pro-business, with business. Your notion that the right side of the aisle is not the law an order side is...bizarre.

Really it's not that bizarre at all. Right wingers break laws all the time.

[Berengil]

Did you even read what you quoted? I said cheapskate employers are a constant. A constant cannot be the variable that caused us to deviate from the norm.

Oh yes, i agree they are a constant...thus far. It needn't continue, with the right laws.

[Tijuana]

And they're almost never enforced, yet our deportation forces are working overtime and people insist we need to hire more border security, more people to find and deport, etc.

The amount of shits conservatives give about punishing businesses for hiring illegals is about as close to zero as you can get without actually being zero. Punishing businesses goes against some switch in their head that says they shalt never think of harming business. There's been no calls to tear down the people who actually make coming to the US desirable for undocumented migrants, and yet the things they say about doing to those migrants themselves... oh boy.

This whole post is just all emotion, man. It's all feelings and presumed feelings. WTF. None of what you are claiming is true. Seriously you are literally so partisan that you think everyone is the same way. We are not. We judge issues one by one and choose a solution. Your kind is the minority. Maybe not here at MMO-C, but in the real world, hyper partisans are not the norm.

[Theodarzna]

how would you propose "curbing" the population?

Its doing it itself, every part of the world integrated into the Capitalist Neo-Liberal world system experiences birth rate collapse. The United States and Europe mostly sustain themselves via immigration and thus import people from the parts of the world not fully integrated.

[Tijuana]

That's acutally not what I'm saying at all. Capitalism is not constant throughout history and neither is employment. People were serfs before they were employees and they were slaves and servants before that. It is precisely endemic of capitalism in that capital will always seek to make profit. Even at the expense of labor. "Cheapskate employers" are not a constant through history, in the marxian analysis they exist in the capitalist phase of society which Marx saw unfolding. Labor is not like any other commodity and the law of supply and demand cannot apply to it. In fact trying to treat it like any form of commodity is a gross injustice. It's fundamentally Inhuman and it kinda makes you a monster sorry. I'll site Polyani quoting Von Mises again:

I mean you are quoting Marx as fact now. I don't see us getting anywhere with all that.

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Oh yes, i agree they are a constant...thus far. It needn't continue, with the right laws.

What right laws could possibly cause business owners to no longer desire lower wages? Market forces are a real thing, and they can't be hand waved away. Ok, you raise minimum wage. Now what. Show me where you legislate wages for the entire economy. Let me know when you figure out that leads to the USSR and I'll let you know how that worked out for them.

[Glorious Leader]

I mean you are quoting Marx as fact now. I don't see us getting anywhere with all that.

No I'm giving you the marxian analysis of the reserve army of labor which you acknoweledged was a thing you just didnt know it by name and called it "too many workers". The quote was from Karl Polyani who was citing Ludwig Von Mises (Von Mises being an uber conservative Austrian dickhead and Polyani an economic historian)

[Berengil]

Its doing it itself, every part of the world integrated into the Capitalist Neo-Liberal world system experiences birth rate collapse. The United States and Europe mostly sustain themselves via immigration and thus import people from the parts of the world not fully integrated.

Well said. The book What to Expect When No One's Expecting by Johnathan Last is fairly clear on this. I don't 100% agree with him ( he's a bit of a religious nut) but it's mostly a good read.

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I mean you are quoting Marx as fact now. I don't see us getting anywhere with all that.

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What right laws could possibly address business owners to no longer desire lower wages? Ok, you raise minimum wage. Now what. Show me where you legislate wages for the entire economy. Let me know when you figure out that least to the USSR and I'll let you know how that worked out for them.

Minimum wage, a protective tariff, prison terms for employers who hire illegal workers, etc.

Basically throw up a barrier every time their desire to cheap out on wages finds a new way to do so.

[Glorious Leader]

Well said. The book What to Expect When No One's Expecting by Johnathan Last is fairly clear on this. I don't 100% agree with him ( he's a bit of a religious nut) but it's mostly a good read.

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Minimum wage, a protective tariff, prison terms for employers who hire illegal workers, etc.

Basically throw up a barrier every time their desire to cheap out on wages finds a new way to do so.

Basic income, repeal nafta and free trade laws in general, capital controls, increased unionization of works basically all things conservative donors (the super wealthy ones) hate.

[Theinquisition]

And they're almost never enforced, yet our deportation forces are working overtime and people insist we need to hire more border security, more people to find and deport, etc.

The amount of shits conservatives give about punishing businesses for hiring illegals is about as close to zero as you can get without actually being zero. Punishing businesses goes against some switch in their head that says they shalt never think of harming business. There's been no calls to tear down the people who actually make coming to the US desirable for undocumented migrants, and yet the things they say about doing to those migrants themselves... oh boy.

Well, we only have our own gov't to blame for that. If they aren't enforcing the laws already on the book, which is what they seem to do with immigration policy overall. Just another reason why I don't trust our gov't with much of anything

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Its doing it itself, every part of the world integrated into the Capitalist Neo-Liberal world system experiences birth rate collapse. The United States and Europe mostly sustain themselves via immigration and thus import people from the parts of the world not fully integrated.

indeed, so why did you say we need to curb our population?

[Tijuana]

No I'm giving you the marxian analysis of the reserve army of labor which you acknoweledged was a thing you just didnt know it by name and called it "too many workers". The quote was from Karl Polyani who was citing Ludwig Von Mises (Von Mises being an uber conservative Austrian dickhead and Polyani an economic historian)

I don't see what Marx has to do with a discussion among grown ups about economics. /shrug