wealth inequality

[Cthulhu 2020]

Do you remember that town in Pennsylvania that enacted a self deport program? They passed strict laws against hiring or leasing to illegal aliens. They made it basically in the best interests of the illegals to go elsewhere. Wanna guess which party passed that law? Wanna guess which side of the aisle FREAKED THE FUCK OUT?

Alabama passed a strict no-illegals law too. Guess who passed that, and guess who repealed it out of sheer embarrassment when their economy crashed because of it?

Your post was a giant "WELL WHAT ABOUT YOU GUYS HUH" and more of not answering the question.

[Deleted]

Hence the noted Japanese economist who reminded elderly folk to "hurry up and die." Japan is deeper into the problem then the US or Europe, but they are attempting to solve it in different ways. Mainly they are forgoing the quick patch solution of immigrants, and just hoping to bare it out until things correct themselves.

They have a great education system that forces the best out of people. The Japanese actually educate all their men as opposed to the current U.S. system that favors an elite few who hold a stranglehold over everything through bribery and corruption, and the women they want to impress. Japan also invested their way out of their economic woes (it takes extremely principled and disciplined people to not waste public money).

I'd say Japan did a sublime job of delaying the inevitable. There's a reason for that, but I will leave that to your imagination. >

[Sorrior]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Can you flesh that out a bit more?

I feel like yiu see those who disagree as SJW or all liberals as those who hold polar opposite views from you in general

[Tijuana]

So why do you constantly talk about punishing illegals, if talking isn't how it works? Why do they fill up the air waves with talk about illegals? You keep deflecting and straw manning, but I'm not seeing any answers to my question.

If you have ants in your kitchen all going ham on a spill of honey, do you just stomp on the ants constantly, or do you clean up the honey?

That answer being obvious, tell me again, why do conservatives CONSTANTLY speak of punishing illegals, but not businesses?

When have I ever talked about punishing illegals? Quote please. Since I'm a grown up, and not a partisan hack, I can hold both the position that I feel compassion for illegal aliens, but also see the problems they create. If I only have 5 steaks, and a family of 5, that neighbor kid is gonna have to go around dinner time. That doesn't make me a mean person, that is just reality.

I don't get your OBSESSION with everyone shouting loudly from every roof top that we should punish employers. I literally have not disagreed with that point even once, and you keep throwing it back at me. Why? I agree. Why do you keep using it as a counter point?

Seriously guy, you are like so full of emotion, you don't even realize it. We are discussing complex things and having a bit of fun with it. And then you come in all "RICH GUY BAD. STEAL FOOD FROM POOR." It really puts a damper on the discussion because we have to pick apart all your confused and misguided claims. Seriously, just reread some of your counter points and note how they are all nearly 100% emotion, with little fact or logic.

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I feel like yiu see those who disagree as SJW or all liberals as those who hold polar opposite views from you in general

Not at all. I have very mixed views. Hell, I support basic income, gay rights, and a number of issues that live on the left. The left has some great ideas. The right has some great ideas. The intended purpose of our government, is to choose which problem gets which solution. Instead we have crybaby assholes (the politicians) who endlessly argue about who is more mean or naive. I don't really think that advances us in any way.

[Theodarzna]

They have a great education system that forces the best out of people. The Japanese actually educate all their men as opposed to the current U.S. system that favors an elite few who hold a stranglehold over everything through bribery and corruption, and the women they want to impress. Japan also invested their way out of their economic woes (it takes extremely principled and disciplined people to not waste public money).

I'd say Japan did a sublime job of delaying the inevitable. There's a reason for that, but I will leave that to your imagination. >

Admittedly no country yet has contrived a successful solution to such a problem on an effective national level. Both Liberal and Conservative solutions have been tried. Sweden being sort of the best case for the Liberal answer, or the EU in general and its been lackluster in results, Singapore is sort of the poster child for the very Conservative approach of tax incentives, restricting abortion to almost illegal, ect and their fertility continued to decline.

[Cthulhu 2020]

When have I ever talked about punishing illegals? Quote please. Since I'm a grown up, and not a partisan hack, I can hold both the position that I feel compassion for illegal aliens, but also see the problems they create. If I only have 5 steaks, and a family of 5, that neighbor kid is gonna have to go around dinner time. That doesn't make me a mean person, that is just reality.

I don't get your OBSESSION with everyone shouting loudly from every roof top that we should punish employers. I literally have not disagreed with that point even once, and you keep throwing it back at me. Why? I agree. Why do you keep using it as a counter point?

Seriously guy, you are like so full of emotion, you don't even realize it. We are discussing complex things and having a bit of fun with it. And then you come in all "RICH GUY BAD. STEAL FOOD FROM POOR." It really puts a damper on the discussion because we have to pick apart all your confused and misguided claims. Seriously, just reread some of your counter points and note how they are all nearly 100% emotion, with little fact or logic.

Yes, Republicans never disagree with punishing employers. They just never talk about it or put forward proposals regarding it in their supposed solutions to illegal immigration. It's always about border security, deportation and imprisonment.

So again, if you have a honey spill and there's a ton of ants all around it, do you step on the ants or clean up the honey?

"STEP ON THE ANTS" the right cries.
"Shouldn't we clean up the honey?" someone suggests.
"I guess," the right says, then after several more years of stepping on ants...
"Uh what happened to cleaning up the honey?"
"Hey I never disagreed with doing it."

[Theinquisition]

Basic income, repeal nafta and free trade laws in general, capital controls, increased unionization of works basically all things conservative donors (the super wealthy ones) hate.

1. Most people don't like the idea of going to work and busting their ass to give money to someone else for doing nothing. Basic income will NEVER gain traction in the U.s. except among the lazy and unemployed.

2. Globalization isn't going away, no matter if you repeal NAFTA or not. Those low skill manufacturing jobs ARE NOT coming back.

3. What kind of capitol controls?

4. Increased unionization is only going to encourage businesses to off shore even more jobs.

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If we're referring to the global population then the answer would be too many people and not enough resources.

that doesn't seem to be the case, from what ive read the earth could support quite a bit more people, even up to 10 billion.

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Well, when it comes to economics, I'm a bit of a Hamiltonian nationalist. Keep jobs and capital at home, I say.

We have to make keeping jobs at home enticing. we're not going to do that by pushing new tariffs

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We are trapped between two crisis. The crisis' that could be caused by "overpopulation," but more aptly, "poor resource management and distribution," and the crisis' of aging demographics and demographic decline. The point I was making is actually we are trapped between a rock and a hard place in this situation.

Further more, it gets more complex. The elite, or powerful and wealthy ownership class is faced with the dual problem of "If they don't breed, nobody buys anything." and the fact that on an individual level it takes immense time investment and sacrifice during your young and fertile years to get ahead. ON THE OTHER HAND, if we were to just breed at rapid rates then there would be the problems of resource depletion and the fact that we do not distribute our resources in any effective or wise way.

So we are stuck. To sustain our lifestyle we need to both curb the population globally BUT at the same time to sustain our current lifestyle we need to breed much more than we do.

The crisis' are basically the ultimate No-Win scenario for us at our present trajectory.

I disagree kind sir. I think we should be encouraging more domestic reproduction. We are no where near full resource utilization.

[Gestopft]

Or we could just grow the economy and live in paradise like 1950s white america. The best times in history are periods of high growth. I'll never understand why the left would sacrifice the benefit of all, just to keep the wealthy from benefiting also. Talk about biting off your nose to spite your face...

The 50's, when the top marginal tax rate was over 90% and our union participation rate peaked (i.e. better wages for low-end workers). Oh, and the minimum wage in 1950 was almost doubled from 1949, and then there was another 33% increase in 1956.

I'm fine with wealthy people being wealthy, but the difference between the top and the bottom is not only ridiculous morally, but it's bad for the economy. I want businesses to succeed and be profitable, but we should also make sure that business owners aren't screwing their employees to increase their gains.

[Deleted]

The global system of neoliberal economics ensures that we will continue to see the siphoning of wealth to the top, financialisation of the economy with its damaging inflation of asset bubbles, privatisation of public services and austerity – all of which guarantees economic stagnation, frozen wages, increasing poverty and declining living standards.

That is all.

[Theinquisition]

"You're so partisan, blah blah blah." This post was a waste of time to even read. The right has not put forward any actual intent of doing anything about businesses who hire illegals, it's all about how to stop and/or punish the illegals themselves. People would rather beat them with the stick than take away the carrot at the end of that stick.

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Why don't conservatives... I dunno, start talking about punishing businesses who hire illegals? Funny how it's always about blaming the incompetency of government, and yet they want to use it to stop illegals, just not businesses.

"they" is a awfully wide pronoun. most conservatives I know are all for punishing businesses that hire illegals. we just are also pissed off at the gov't for selectively enforcing immigration laws, and state gov't that make a point to not cooperate with Federal law enforcement regarding immigration.

[Tijuana]

Yes, Republicans never disagree with punishing employers. They just never talk about it or put forward proposals regarding it in their supposed solutions to illegal immigration. It's always about border security, deportation and imprisonment.

So again, if you have a honey spill and there's a ton of ants all around it, do you step on the ants or clean up the honey?

"STEP ON THE ANTS" the right cries.
"Shouldn't we clean up the honey?" someone suggests.
"I guess," the right says, then after several more years of stepping on ants...
"Uh what happened to cleaning up the honey?"
"Hey I never disagreed with doing it."

Wait. Are you at it again? How many times do I have to tell you I agree that employers who hire illegals should be punished before you keep inserting it in as a rebuttal to other points I am trying to make? Seriously, have you been drinking?

The ant thing, I don't even know man. This is what I do know. We don't have enough jobs, and we got some super nice people here that were not invited. I'm not even calling for their removal. All I'm saying, maybe these numbers belong in our equations about lack of jobs. That's it. I'm not getting in to your feelings discussions or any of that emotion you are shitting all over the thread.

[Metzindown]

The problems all come from the he fact that human and indeed every creature on this planet are inherently selfish. Everyone, no exceptions. Even when humans do something"selflessly", there is a selfish reason behind it, which is, the emotional reward of seeing someone happy or receiving a thank you. If you do not get a thank you, you will be less inclined to help that person ahain, thus it's not a selfless act. When people are given the opportunity to have vast amounts of money, that selfishness gets turned up 1000 fold because suddenly another trait all of us animals share kicks in, covetous envy from everyone else. This causes the person with money to want to keep it and feelings of distrust and resentment blossom and fuel the selfish desire to keep what is yours. This is not corruption, this is simply the base nature of all living things being loosed into the open. Sorry for the wall of text, I'm on my phone.

[Rasulis]

Admittedly no country yet has contrived a successful solution to such a problem on an effective national level. Both Liberal and Conservative solutions have been tried. Sweden being sort of the best case for the Liberal answer, or the EU in general and its been lackluster in results, Singapore is sort of the poster child for the very Conservative approach of tax incentives, restricting abortion to almost illegal, ect and their fertility continued to decline.

Singapore is perfect example of a country that has managed to completely overeducate its population. Your typical Singaporean male probably does not know the right end of a hammer. If you give him a nail gun, he will most likely ended up shooting himself in the foot.

[Theodarzna]

I disagree kind sir. I think we should be encouraging more domestic reproduction. We are no where near full resource utilization.

I think we should be encouraging domestic reproduction, but I qualify it with better resource management globally. The facts are our lifestyle is not sustainable over the long term.

[Theinquisition]

The 50's, when the top marginal tax rate was over 90% and our union participation rate peaked (i.e. better wages for low-end workers). Oh, and the minimum wage in 1950 was almost doubled from 1949, and then there was another 33% increase in 1956.

I'm fine with wealthy people being wealthy, but the difference between the top and the bottom is not only ridiculous morally, but it's bad for the economy. I want businesses to succeed and be profitable, but we should also make sure that business owners aren't screwing their employees to increase their gains.

AH yes the "90% marginal tax rate" myth.

You do realize that damn near NO ONE actually paid those taxes right? there were a myriad of loopholes and deductions that could be used to get out of paying that much.

the biggest reason that the 50's were a economic "golden age" for the U.S. is because most of the industrialized world was blown the fuck up 10 years prior and were still recovering. the U.S. was the only major economy still making shit people wanted.

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I think we should be encouraging domestic reproduction, but I qualify it with better resource management globally. The facts are our lifestyle is not sustainable over the long term.

why is it not?

[Theodarzna]

Singapore is perfect example of a country that has managed to completely overeducate its population. Your typical Singaporean male probably does not know the right end of a hammer. If you give him a nail gun, he will most likely ended up shooting himself in the foot.

Ultimately I feel we have to come to terms with the fact that humans are animals and admittedly we just don't know how to manage our societies since we really don't know that much about ourselves or what motivates us.

[Tijuana]

The 50's, when the top marginal tax rate was over 90% and our union participation rate peaked (i.e. better wages for low-end workers). Oh, and the minimum wage in 1950 was almost doubled from 1949, and then there was another 33% increase in 1956.

I'm fine with wealthy people being wealthy, but the difference between the top and the bottom is not only ridiculous morally, but it's bad for the economy. I want businesses to succeed and be profitable, but we should also make sure that business owners aren't screwing their employees to increase their gains.

My point, that seems to be really hard to grasp is very basic. We do "things" that harm our growth while a lack of growth is currently our biggest problem. Maybe we should not do that. Feelings are well and good but, reality is a bitch. For example, if we raise the minimum wage to $50, sure that's a game changer for that worker. But getting fired because the business is no longer viable is a game changer too.

We don't want the rich to rule the world. But, we also can't blame all of our problems on them. We can't get so mad at the wealthy, that we destroy the basic economic system. The evil of capitalism is that it creates the richest rich people. But, it also creates the richest poor people.

[Berengil]

Singapore is perfect example of a country that has managed to completely overeducate its population. Your typical Singaporean male probably does not know the right end of a hammer. If you give him a nail gun, he will most likely ended up shooting himself in the foot.

Not to mention they have some of the most pro-natalist policies on Earth. But it hasn't moved their birthrate more than a little.

It seems inevitable that as a people's wealth and education rise, they reproduce less.

[Tijuana]

Ultimately I feel we have to come to terms with the fact that humans are animals and admittedly we just don't know how to manage our societies since we really don't know that much about ourselves or what motivates us.

I find the opposite to be true. Human nature is very easy to understand, and very predictable. The systems that harness our natural tendencies seem to work the best. Of course, there are issues that arise where we put morality above our natural tendency, and that's fine. But we can't try to create a system that opposes human nature at every turn, and expect us to be better off. At the end of the day, we are in fact human, and we will always look out for ourselves and our families first.

[Theodarzna]

AH yes the "90% marginal tax rate" myth.

You do realize that damn near NO ONE actually paid those taxes right? there were a myriad of loopholes and deductions that could be used to get out of paying that much.

the biggest reason that the 50's were a economic "golden age" for the U.S. is because most of the industrialized world was blown the fuck up 10 years prior and were still recovering. the U.S. was the only major economy still making shit people wanted.

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why is it not?

In terms of resource use and ecological footprint we are brutally wasting a lot of resources and cannot keep going. Americans are going to have to live with less and change, indeed IMHO most of the planet is going to have to change, and its changes that neither Liberals nor Conservatives will like or see as good.