wealth inequality

[Endus]

Was unaware of that. I'm not very well read on internal Canadian economics. Any noticeable good/bad effects? Or is it just a wash?

Well, it's automatically adjusting to inflation, now, so we don't have to have endless debates about whether we should adjust the minimum wage to account for inflation. So there's that.

Hasn't really had any effect on employment or whatever. Just streamlines things so there's one less thing to argue about at the governmental level. Now, if we're talking bout boosting minimum wage, it's because we've decided it's too low, not just because inflation's kept happening (which it does, every year, on purpose).

[Berengil]

Comfortable people are weak and lazy. The public opinion may be that but throwing an ever expensive army into the hell mouth of an insurgency will be difficult. Look how quickly the War on Terror fell apart as American's got sick of it and the war effort declined. And that was when we were attacked. Invasion for pure resource gathering will have about as much support.

Innovation is also a false God IMHO. Every new triumph over nature makes the next level that much harder to attain. Eventually new innovations will become too costly for the cash strapped, decaying America or more aptly global civilization to support and endure.

I think you underestimate just how far desperate and formerly comfortable people will be willing to go or push their government to go. Like post WW 1 Germany for example. Now imagine they had nukes and spent more on their military than the next 12 countries combined. That's what will happen when the US gets pushed that far.

[Machismo]

Wait a minute.....who the hell do you think corrupts the government, if not businesses and the wealthy?

I think they do corrupt government, that's why I do not want the government involved when it does not need to be.

[Tijuana]

Seeing as the circumstances are (hopefully) unlikely to repeat themselves, maybe our path to prosperity shouldn't be hoping for a return for the 50's. Since that level of demand is unlikely to return, we can either try and create demand and turn the economy around or we can just hope that circumstances favor us in the future.

Yes, the Post-WW2 global landscape fueled the massive growth of the 50's, but unions and policies that favored workers helped ensure that more people shared in that growth.



I get your point. I just don't think that reducing overhead would create nearly as much growth as you do. Growth is a virtuous cycle of consumers spending money and creating demand, and businesses and investors rising to meet the demand. But the thing is that virtuous cycles don't start of their own accord- they require demand to light the spark. In the absence of a recovering world Post-WW2 or a technological innovation explosion like the .com boom, you can either wait for something big...or you can try and light the spark through public policy. Raising the minimum wage will put more money into the economy as disposable income goes up.

Nobody is pushing for a $50 minimum wage. I already said I support a balance where businesses can be profitable without screwing their employees. I like business.



Who here has said they want to destroy capitalism? You can scream communism all you like whenever someone takes a step to the left, but that doesn't actually make it true. I want a capitalist foundation for the economy. But without regulations and/or collective bargaining, a capitalist economy isn't going to work for the many.

You are mistaking my second point you quoted. I am not calling for no regulation, we haven't even gotten in to that in this thread much. But since you brought it up, I'm saying expensive, difficult to comply with, burdensome regulations that intended as "payback" are a huge problem right now.

We all get up every day and live our lives without murdering. But the government doesn't ask us to prove it every quarter with lengthy paperwork that carries stiff fines and penalties if its filled out wrong. We are not asked to hire whole departments of people to provide proof that we did not murder even once this quarter. We are not asked to keep legal advice on staff to comply with intricate murder regulations that were written by a novice in the field. At some point, it becomes so burdensome, that you eat up all the growth with compliance. And this could be all the while you have never committed even one crime, or were even charged with one.

[Machismo]

Only because you don't understand why I have an issue with corporatism as an ideology. It has nothing to do with government enforcing their laws. You keep acting as if that's the issue, and it very clearly isn't.

I've told you this at least 4 times now, but you keep lying about it.


Our minimum wage is tied to inflation now, here in Ontario. Got bumped to $11.25 last year, and will get bumped to $11.40 in October (which is when it changes). The evaluation's made in the spring so businesses have months of forewarning as to what the new number will be.

You don't like that they are unbalancing the playing field, you've made that quite clear. Of course, you don't seem to have a problem doing it yourself.

[Theodarzna]

I think you underestimate just how far desperate and formerly comfortable people will be willing to go or push their government to go. Like post WW 1 Germany for example. Now imagine they had nukes and spent more on their military than the next 12 countries combined. That's what will happen when the US gets pushed that far.

If they had nukes, nothing would change, Nukes are a useless weapon since using them is a suicide order. A massive army can be beaten simply through the demoralizing tactics of the insurgent. Vietnam and Iraq both beat the United States, on shoe string budgets and with a sliver of the power. Heck you could argue Osama Bin Laden technically won, his cheap little sucker punch caused us to waste trillions and get a lot of people killed and we did it, in theory, to kill one man. The cost differentials in fighting the US versus the US response is insanely lopsided.

[Tijuana]

Only because you don't understand why I have an issue with corporatism as an ideology. It has nothing to do with government enforcing their laws. You keep acting as if that's the issue, and it very clearly isn't.

I've told you this at least 4 times now, but you keep lying about it.


Our minimum wage is tied to inflation now, here in Ontario. Got bumped to $11.25 last year, and will get bumped to $11.40 in October (which is when it changes). The evaluation's made in the spring so businesses have months of forewarning as to what the new number will be.

^^This. 110% this. The real crime about the US minimum wage is that both parties are using it as a political football while people suffer from the lack of decision. I'm not sure I agree with nation-wide minimum wages in general, but we could at least tie to something that floats so people don't suffer in the interim.

[Berengil]

If they had nukes, nothing would change, Nukes are a useless weapon since using them is a suicide order. A massive army can be beaten simply through the demoralizing tactics of the insurgent. Vietnam and Iraq both beat the United States, on shoe string budgets and with a sliver of the power. Heck you could argue Osama Bin Laden technically won, his cheap little sucker punch caused us to waste trillions and get a lot of people killed and we did it, in theory, to kill one man. The cost differentials in fighting the US versus the US response is insanely lopsided.

I dont mean to say it will necessarily work. I mean to say it will happen, and people had better be ready for it.

[Cthulhu 2020]

dude every post is "well conservatives this and conservatives that..." Sorry to tell you Bruce, but BOTH SIDES have been using illegal immigration as a political issue to exploit for gain. I haven't seen to many Liberals suggest going after businesses more harshly, only proposing more policies that encourage more of them to come.

I haven't seen Liberals pushing for EITHER, but you guys have always had an active imagination when it comes to the left and illegals. Bought votes? Quite hilarious. What lawmakers on the left have been pushing is a fix to our broken immigration system. A system which often takes over 5 years (the time for a typical work visa) to even hear a yes or a no. It's pretty fucking broken to not even hear one way or the other from immigration on your status for over 5 years.

Then whenever this is pointed out, that the left is trying to fix this, the response for blocking said fix is "NO YOU JUST WANT TO USHER IN TONS OF ILLEGALS SO THEY VOTE FOR YOU AT THEIR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT VOTING BOOTHS THAT TOTALLY EXIST."

[Endus]

You don't like that they are unbalancing the playing field, you've made that quite clear. Of course, you don't seem to have a problem doing it yourself.

Again, no.

Repeating your lie isn't going to lend it strength.

Particularly since you conveniently forget that, in a representative democracy, the government is on both sides of the table. Which makes your comparison ridiculous.

[Bodakane]

The politicians. Everyone can attempt to bribe someone, but only one person can accept the bribe.

Wow. Fucking wow.

[Tijuana]

I haven't seen Liberals pushing for EITHER, but you guys have always had an active imagination when it comes to the left and illegals. Bought votes? Quite hilarious. What lawmakers on the left have been pushing is a fix to our broken immigration system. A system which often takes over 5 years (the time for a typical work visa) to even hear a yes or a no. It's pretty fucking broken to not even hear one way or the other from immigration on your status for over 5 years.

Then whenever this is pointed out, that the left is trying to fix this, the response for blocking said fix is "NO YOU JUST WANT TO USHER IN TONS OF ILLEGALS SO THEY VOTE FOR YOU AT THEIR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT VOTING BOOTHS THAT TOTALLY EXIST."

Then why did your guys vote against a bill that gave them every single thing they wanted, minus votes. If it wasn't the votes, why did they not support Rubio's bill?

- - - Updated - - -

Wow. Fucking wow.

Yeah, I know. Logic isn't your thing.

[Bodakane]

I think they do corrupt government, that's why I do not want the government involved when it does not need to be.

lol, leave it to you to think businesses corrupt the government .....when the government regulates them...only a conservative could come up that grade a bullshit.

[Cthulhu 2020]

^^This. 110% this. The real crime about the US minimum wage is that both parties are using it as a political football while people suffer from the lack of decision. I'm not sure I agree with nation-wide minimum wages in general, but we could at least tie to something that floats so people don't suffer in the interim.

This has been being kicked around by liberals for awhile now. I could point out who's been cock blocking it but... well you'll just call me emotionally partisan for pointing out who's been obstructionist of some long overdue legislation.

[Bodakane]

Yeah, I know. Logic isn't your thing.

Seriously?

What kind of person do you think all those offered bribes calls to the government? I mean you can't fucking be serious? Do you think people that try to hire someone for murder are wrong or is it just the people that take the job? I mean come the fuck on.

[Endus]

^^This. 110% this. The real crime about the US minimum wage is that both parties are using it as a political football while people suffer from the lack of decision. I'm not sure I agree with nation-wide minimum wages in general, but we could at least tie to something that floats so people don't suffer in the interim.

You could definitely make an argument that the minimum should be set by the States, respective of their individual circumstances (cost of living, etc), but have a framework for determining that in place at the national level. That's presuming that the States play ball and maintain reasonable minimums, though; if there's a chance one might attempt to lower theirs too much, maintaining the federal value as an overall minimum makes sense. Canada's are set by the provinces.

The USA's in a weird circumstance (at least, from foreign eyes) where they drum that their States are supposedly relatively independent, but then Federal legislation is more sweeping than in many other countries, like Canada. The Provinces and Territories here handle their own internal finances (including minimum wages) and run their own health provision (some federal funding, but the actual administration is provincial). There's a heck of a lot of independence in practical terms.

[Mormolyce]

Actually, we are still slightly above the hostorical average for minimum wage in America.

It's going to take a long time for Democrats to take back Congress, likely at least a decade. The GOP may be piss poor at winning the presidency, but they are firmly entrenched on Congress. Their rhetoric plays much better on the small stage, where their candidates are often celebrated for their idiocy.

That's not what I said though. In real dollars it's declined since the 60s.

[Theinquisition]

Your average annual income in Minnesota is $25k? How does anyone live on that?

Well unlike the AU, a steak dinner doesn't cost 40$ in the U.S. Nor are our utility bills 800$ plus

[Tijuana]

This has been being kicked around by liberals for awhile now. I could point out who's been cock blocking it but... well you'll just call me emotionally partisan for pointing out who's been obstructionist of some long overdue legislation.

If you stated a fact in rebuttal, it would be the first today.

- - - Updated - - -

You could definitely make an argument that the minimum should be set by the States, respective of their individual circumstances (cost of living, etc), but have a framework for determining that in place at the national level. That's presuming that the States play ball and maintain reasonable minimums, though; if there's a chance one might attempt to lower theirs too much, maintaining the federal value as an overall minimum makes sense. Canada's are set by the provinces.

The USA's in a weird circumstance (at least, from foreign eyes) where they drum that their States are supposedly relatively independent, but then Federal legislation is more sweeping than in many other countries, like Canada. The Provinces and Territories here handle their own internal finances (including minimum wages) and run their own health provision (some federal funding, but the actual administration is provincial). There's a heck of a lot of independence in practical terms.

The problem with letting states decide, is they are in competition with each other for business. But, it should still be applied on some sort of local level that takes in to account cost of living. I mean, I don't even know how you feed yourself in NY for $7.50, let alone pay the rent. But where I live, my nephew is able to live out of his mom's house on it, with one other room mate.

- - - Updated - - -

Seriously?

What kind of person do you think all those offered bribes calls to the government? I mean you can't fucking be serious? Do you think people that try to hire someone for murder are wrong or is it just the people that take the job? I mean come the fuck on.

No, I think people who break the law should always be prosecuted. By just using basic logic and science, the only person who can 100% stop the corruption from happening, is the politician.

You see, my position has a logical and clear solution. Your solution calls for people to suddenly stop being assholes, which is unlikely, and has no means for being implemented.

[Endus]

The problem with letting states decide, is they are in competition with each other for business. But, it should still be applied on some sort of local level that takes in to account cost of living. I mean, I don't even know how you feed yourself in NY for $7.50, let alone pay the rent. But where I live, my nephew is able to live out of his mom's house on it, with one other room mate.

Same point that I made above; the USA is in this weird place where the States act like they're way more independent than they actually are. I can't think of any circumstance where Canadian provinces acted like they were in "competition"; most business is either resource-based (forestry, agriculture, etc; Nunavut isn't likely to outcompete BC for foresting bids) or location-based (most retail outlets, where you want a distribution network).

The idea that you'd fuck over your own population to try and attract a bunch of minimum-wage jobs just never emerges as a real option.