Are MMO-Champ LFR players the majority of LFR players?

[Jinpachi]

Yeah, having the game designed around forcing players through LFR and losing non-raid content because LFR exists is definitely having no impact.



It's not, by definition. It's created by removing content and reducing difficulty to a point that it becomes nearly impossible to fail. The content is designed first on heroic and then mythic and it's intended to be done at those difficulty levels. It's then obliterated in difficulty to create LFR.

This is why most of the mechanics don't make sense in LFR.

You're talking nonsense. The developers specifically implemented LFR for a specific reason, for a specific audience. It's worked quite well for those targets. Your opinion about it is irrelevant.

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I guess you dont understand the problem of rewarding mediocrity in an MMO. I wonder how successful Vanilla or BC would have been if there was LFR ZG or LFR Karazhan.
Rewarding players for sucking at the game isn't good game design, it diminishes the efforts of people who want to get better at the game.

Content being gated behind difficulty is actually a good thing. It creates longevity for content on Blizzards part and it forces people to get better at the game or quit.

But i've never been a typical LFR player in this game. When i saw a player in full t6 in Orgrimmar, i didn't think to myself, oh man this game is bullshit. I realized that in order to get that gear and that reputation, i had to get better at the game. So did the 12 million other players who were playing at the time.

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Wouldn't you prefer it if you had 1 main character only that you could slowly work gearing up on instead of having 14 different characters that you gear up pretty quickly?

tired of mediocrity being rewarded? Start a guild and get to training them buddy, otherwise shut the fuck up.

[BiggestNoob]

You're talking nonsense. The developers specifically implemented LFR for a specific reason, for a specific audience. It's worked quite well for those targets. Your opinion about it is irrelevant.

So clearly BRF normal was intended to be done with HFC mythic gear? I mean they implemented HFC mythic gear while BRF normal was still a thing.

LFR isn't tested, it's a shitty cut down version of heroic, it's just there to replace thousands of man hours of content creation because idiots eat it up like it's something special, and then immediately quit the game afterwards because there's nothing left to do, but yeah sure, Blizzard carefully crafts an LFR experience for the casual player and intends every group to have 2 tanks, 6 healers, 17 DPS, and for the encounters to be enjoyable with random player performance. When you do LFR, you know you're receiving a high quality experience crafted specifically for your entertainment, definitely not a watered down nerfed into the ground shadow of content you could be doing if you just weren't so lazy and insistent on your entitlement to content because you pay $15 a month. And that high quality every-man's content is precisely why WoW is still growing despite every other MMO dying!

[Osmeric]

So clearly BRF normal was intended to be done with HFC mythic gear? I mean they implemented HFC mythic gear while BRF normal was still a thing.

What a bizarre non sequitur.

[MoanaLisa]

There's no dishonesty there. The content is not designed for LFR, and so by definition it's not intended to be done at that level.

If the content is designed around Mythic then everything less difficult than that is content not intended for that level. If it's still designed for Heroic and pumped up for Mythic then it's not intended for that level either. That's the logical endpoint of what you are saying. And it's ridiculous. If you allow that the other three difficulties that make up organized raiding are valid, then you're just moving goalposts to wherever you wish to put them. Of course it's dishonest.

You're only going after LFR when clearly a raid designer tweaks LFR just as they tweak the other levels into whatever Blizzard thinks they should be. Is the content designed for flexible raid groups with respect to size or a standard fixed size. More changes. And you call 99% of everyone else ignorant?

[BiggestNoob]

What a bizarre non sequitur.

Blizzard designed HFC knowing full well that BRF was still considered current content for most of their playerbase. But yeah, applying someone's logic directly to a scenario that demonstrates how absurd it is definitely falls under "non sequitur". Oh and Tanaan, and the 20% nerfs to BRF. Clearly BRF was intended to be done with full Tanaan gear and with a 20% nerf! Non sequitur tho, clearly we can only use this logic regarding LFR. LFR exists therefore it was designed by the hand of god just for those little people who like it.

If the content is designed around Mythic then everything less difficult than that is content not intended for that level. If it's still designed for Heroic and pumped up for Mythic then it's not intended for that level either. That's the logical endpoint of what you are saying.

No, it's not. They design the content for heroic, then buff everything on top of adding new mechanics (and sometimes completely changing the fights) for mythic. We test both of those. Both of those are designed with specific play in mind.

Then heroic is nerfed for normal, and that is nerfed even further for LFR. Neither of these difficulties is tested by players (all internal testing, and "hopefully this is good"). Did you do HFC normal on launch week? There were bosses that you could 1-shot without even knowing the mechanics, then go in on heroic and the mechanics would destroy you. And then of course when they fixed things, people complained that normal was too hard so they nerfed that to be more comparable to LFR (by mostly disabling mechanics).

I completely agree that both LFR and normal are just handouts. The content on heroic is easy, and on mythic it feels well tuned. Below that it's just so faceroll you can bring whatever group you want with whatever skill levels and trivially roll over the content with virtually guaranteed 1-shots. Given the 12 years of history in this game and Blizzard never being about making raid content where you just walk in, no idea wtf you're doing, and just drop every boss like you're Method, I'm going to very assuredly say that the content is absolutely not intended to be done at a difficulty level like that. The way they build the content and test it confirms this. You have to realize that LFR and normal (which was flex, but now it's just heroic---- or LFR+) are just bones thrown to dogs who do nothing but complain about content that receives near universal praise from anyone who bothers to exert the small amount of effort it requires to complete.

As with virtually all things in life, if everyone complaining about this thing being too hard and demanding to see things because they're entitled spent a fraction of that effort doing useful work, they'd have completely removed the problem they set out to "solve" in the first place.

You're only going after LFR when clearly a raid designer tweaks LFR just as they tweak the other levels into whatever Blizzard thinks they should be. Is the content designed for flexible raid groups with respect to size or a standard fixed size. More changes. And you call 99% of everyone else ignorant?

Someone spends less than an hour going through and just nerfing abilities for LFR, someone recolors the gear skins or removes some of the flair, someone comes up with some set bonuses/trinkets specific to LFR, and then someone cuts up the map into pieces with different spawn locations for the wings. Those flex mechanics exist in heroic, and they're generally untouched in normal/LFR. No content is designed for LFR or normal, no mechanics are made specifically for it, it's not crafted in any way, it's just a trimmed down version of what's in heroic. Heroic is the basis, and mythic is heroic upgraded with extra mechanics. The encounters are not specially designed for normal or LFR, no. They're designed for heroic and mythic.

I've already stated many times that the LFR content isn't content made for people who want to see the raid content without raiding. Anyone (yes anyone) can raid even via LFG and complete normal at any reasonable gear level, so long as they learn how to play their spec (YouTube is hard tho). LFR should've been replaced by actual story content that used the raid art assets, music, voice acting, etc. Be it solo or 2-5 man content that's more story based and has hours of play to it instead of just being bosses. There's raiding, which is something a lot of us really enjoy doing, and then there's RPG content that's not raiding, and Blizzard claims that's what LFR is meant to provide. The downside there is that I'm perfectly happy doing RPG content that isn't just "hey stand there we'll brb with your free loot", and I'm missing out on that content too. It's just pretty hilarious when LFR players prefer to have a shitty watered down version of heroic that is generally idiot-proof and provides no real lasting entertainment. Clearly all these other RPGs outselling WoW are doing something wrong. They don't do that. And we can tell people don't even like LFR because it's extraordinarily rare to find someone who doesn't raid (and therefore goes for the incentives) who's done even every wing of LFR, and only a tiny tiny tiny fraction of those people have done any wing more than once, while the exact opposite is true of raiders. At a psychological level, the vast majority of people know that content isn't designed for them, and hence they don't enjoy it enough to want to do it more than once (or even finish it, in most cases).

[Akka]

No it doesnt.

It really doesn't. That's only true in your head where someone getting shiny, albeit inferior, epics for doing watered down versions of the content you enjoy is somehow a problem for you.

Well, you can try to argue that the design of the game doesn't affect people playing it, but that's a conceptually wrong (and stupid) argument regardless of the amount of wishful thinking you might want to put into it.

[Deathquoi]

Well, you can try to argue that the design of the game doesn't affect people playing it, but that's a conceptually wrong (and stupid) argument regardless of the amount of wishful thinking you might want to put into it.

If you don't have to run LFR and you never enter LFR at all, how does it affect you? Please explain that to me.

[Deleted]

Then heroic is nerfed for normal, and that is nerfed even further for LFR. Neither of these difficulties is tested by players (all internal testing, and "hopefully this is good"). Did you do HFC normal on launch week? There were bosses that you could 1-shot without even knowing the mechanics, then go in on heroic and the mechanics would destroy you. And then of course when they fixed things, people complained that normal was too hard so they nerfed that to be more comparable to LFR (by mostly disabling mechanics).
).

LFR for HFC got tested on set weekends by players during the ptr just fyi.

[Akka]

If you don't have to run LFR and you never enter LFR at all, how does it affect you? Please explain that to me.

This question has been asked and answered about one thousand times each week for years. I'm pretty sure you would have found the answer already if you actually were interested in it.

[Osmeric]

This question has been asked and answered about one thousand times each week for years. I'm pretty sure you would have found the answer already if you actually were interested in it.

He was asking for an answer that wasn't bullshit.

[Akka]

He was asking for an answer that wasn't bullshit.

The fact that game design affect people playing the game is beyond obvious. You can label "bullshit" what you don't like in the absurd hope that reality and concepts will suddendly change to fit your desired narrative, but you'll forgive me if I grew up beyond 3-years old level of reality perception.

[Deathquoi]

This question has been asked and answered about one thousand times each week for years. I'm pretty sure you would have found the answer already if you actually were interested in it.

I want you to answer it. I'll take the fact that you can't as confirmation that I'm right.

[Jensxo]

There is no problem. If you don't want to do LFR content it has literally zero impact on you. I haven't run a single LFR run in WoD because I don't personally enjoy LFR. LFR has no effect on my gameplay experience whatsoever.

For a mythic player, i don't enjoy the content outside of raiding which doesn't have a very high difficulty. Because the majority of players do watered down basic content...the majority of the game is watered down basic content that any person can do. It's not fun for a hardcore player. I don't enjoy logging on for mythic then logging off because there is nothing worth my time outside of raiding.

Genuinely think people need to stop being spoonfed in this game. I don't enjoy the separation of different groups by raid difficulty....i'd prefer a benchmark difficulty like they had in BC in which you had entry level raids...mid tier raids....high tier raids....you slowly progressed through each raid at your own pace so content wasn't immediately made useless when a new tier came out.


Just for one second, imagine that if in TBC you had 4 difficulty version of each raid.
It just wouldn't work. MMO's are designed to sink your time into them. Gearing should be incredibly hard. The game should be difficult in all aspects.

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This is a fallacy. The two do not connect. The main reason WoW does not have 10 million players anymore is simply that about 5 or 6 major studios copy them or tried to copy them, the game has been played for more than 10 years and this is not 2004 anymore and several factors are different (e.g. people don't find /2 that important anymore for communication, they have more social media).

Isn't runescape going pretty strong still somewhat? Isn't that game incredibly grindy and difficult?

[Deathquoi]

For a mythic player, i don't enjoy the content outside of raiding which doesn't have a very high difficulty. Because the majority of players do watered down basic content...the majority of the game is watered down basic content that any person can do. It's not fun for a hardcore player. I don't enjoy logging on for mythic then logging off because there is nothing worth my time outside of raiding.

Genuinely think people need to stop being spoonfed in this game. I don't enjoy the separation of different groups by raid difficulty....i'd prefer a benchmark difficulty like they had in BC in which you had entry level raids...mid tier raids....high tier raids....you slowly progressed through each raid at your own pace so content wasn't immediately made useless when a new tier came out.


Just for one second, imagine that if in TBC you had 4 difficulty version of each raid.
It just wouldn't work. MMO's are designed to sink your time into them. Gearing should be incredibly hard. The game should be difficult in all aspects.

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Isn't runescape going pretty strong still somewhat? Isn't that game incredibly grindy and difficult?

So what does any of that have to do with LFR? You think LFR has caused the fact that there's nothing to do outside raids and you believe that only Mythic raiders should be able to raid?

[Jinpachi]

For a mythic player, i don't enjoy the content outside of raiding which doesn't have a very high difficulty. Because the majority of players do watered down basic content...the majority of the game is watered down basic content that any person can do. It's not fun for a hardcore player. I don't enjoy logging on for mythic then logging off because there is nothing worth my time outside of raiding.

Genuinely think people need to stop being spoonfed in this game. I don't enjoy the separation of different groups by raid difficulty....i'd prefer a benchmark difficulty like they had in BC in which you had entry level raids...mid tier raids....high tier raids....you slowly progressed through each raid at your own pace so content wasn't immediately made useless when a new tier came out.


Just for one second, imagine that if in TBC you had 4 difficulty version of each raid.
It just wouldn't work. MMO's are designed to sink your time into them. Gearing should be incredibly hard. The game should be difficult in all aspects.

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Isn't runescape going pretty strong still somewhat? Isn't that game incredibly grindy and difficult?

The game should be whatever makes the company money. Your argument is invalid. Want a challenge? Go play a game where the encounters aren't scripted.

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I'm sick to death of the elitist mythic raiders complaining as if what they do is so difficult. The hardest part of raiding at that level is 1. Getting a group of like minded individuals with the same goals in the game. 2. Getting them to agree on a strat for boss encounters. 3. Learning the mechanics. 4. Execution. I did endgame raiding in vanilla/tbc/wrath and to be honest, the time sink isnt worth the rewards gained. At the end of the day, it's just pixels. Have fun doing what you do, and stop knocking others for doing the same. You are free to leave if you can't.

I'll say it again. Scripted encounters aren't difficult, on any setting.

[Usagi Senshi]

The fact that game design affect people playing the game is beyond obvious. You can label "bullshit" what you don't like in the absurd hope that reality and concepts will suddendly change to fit your desired narrative, but you'll forgive me if I grew up beyond 3-years old level of reality perception.

Still smells like bullshit, brah. I'll make this simple for you alright: YOU HAVE NO FUCKING PROOF SHIT AFFECTS ANYTHING. No one does, no matter how much they like hearing themselves say otherwise.

Also, MMOs are never going back to how they were 10-15 years ago so just let it go or go play another genre (where more hardcore gaming experiences exist mind you )

[Akka]

I want you to answer it. I'll take the fact that you can't as confirmation that I'm right.

Still smells like bullshit, brah. I'll make this simple for you alright: YOU HAVE NO FUCKING PROOF SHIT AFFECTS ANYTHING. No one does, no matter how much they like hearing themselves say otherwise.

Yeah guys sure, there is no "proof" that the way a game is designed affect how it is played...

See, this guy of completely retarded argument is the very reason why I don't bother spending time and efforts making lengthy explanation. If people will happily ignore the very definition of a concept, then will do doubly so for any kind of point which requires them to connect two neurons.

But be convinced you won at the Internet if you wish, it's you who will end up stupider for it, not me ^^

[Usagi Senshi]

Yeah guys sure, there is no "proof" that the way a game is designed affect how it is played...

See, this guy of completely retarded argument is the very reason why I don't bother spending time and efforts making lengthy explanation. If people will happily ignore the very definition of a concept, then will do doubly so for any kind of point which requires them to connect two neurons.

But be convinced you won at the Internet if you wish, it's you who will end up stupider for it, not me ^^

Quoting for hilarity!

Seriously though, you still no argument here.

[Youn]

Wouldn't you prefer it if you had 1 main character only that you could slowly work gearing up on instead of having 14 different characters that you gear up pretty quickly?

My main character is gearing up as fast as once a week highest lockout will allow. IE 9 hours per week of mythic raiding. I cannot make the other 19 people in my guild show up more often to raid alts. At the moment, I cannot make those 19 people show up to raid period.

[Speedlance]

Problem is that people think LFR is the same as queing for a random heroic dungeon. LFR is only here as an option for people who don't want to commit to guild raiding week after week and too give everybody an opportunity to see the content.
Drives me nuts to see people whine about LFR difficulty lol.

If you want a random queing raid where you're sort of challenged, ask blizzard too implement it but LFR is NOT that. I'm sorry but if you don't understand this you're pretty stupid