Legion - Subtlety discussion

[elfporn]

also keep in mind master of shadows is lame as fuck compared to DfA

Opinion i think? I'd be willing to bet DFA will be better with artifact traits for sure, but it might not be at the start of the expac

[kalaratic]

Opinion i think? I'd be willing to bet DFA will be better with artifact traits for sure, but it might not be at the start of the expac

i mean i don't want to pass off my opinion as gospel but we're comparing something that has an animation to something that doesn't. also the trait that buffs crit to evisc is the first one you can upgrade so you will have it within the first couple hours for sure.

personally i am rooting for DfA to be the best 100 talent because it looks really cool and promotes a much more fun and engaging gameplay with lining it up with all the stealth buffs and finality.

[Rikhart]

The issue with DFA is it has a very slow animation that slows everything down.

[kalaratic]

The issue with DFA is it has a very slow animation that slows everything down.

i really don't think it's that bad. especially if mastery crit is the way go (which means slow energy regen), it's 10 energy cheaper than evisc and the whirl into the air is basically downtime that you have anyway for pooling energy except you get a mega-evisc right after. if we're stacking haste than ya i would agree.

[ymirsson]

I wouldn't want to have KS finally as a talent (hopefully not the strongest) just to be shoehorned into the ONE other "jump to death" skill still ingame.
It's a strange rogue only (or am i missing something? haven't played anything else besides rogue much the last expansion) trait to have skills that are on a fundamental mechanics level flawed and outdated. Backstab still has a "get behind or get lost" tooltip.

[panzaghor]

I've found a way to make sub synergize with symbols of death. Alacrity and master of shadows are underrated talents. I'm not sure if they're actual dps increases over enveloping shadows + DFA. However, I have noticed that ES actually seems more like a pain because of the wasted combo points. https://www.twitch.tv/nahkadamus/v/74236849

Awesome vídeo, keep it up.

[defury]

I think MoS will outpace DfA on long fights for the simple fact that it essentially lets you macro SD with ShD and with good procs you should outpace the DfA finishers in damage with the crit Shadowstrikes. I'm waiting until the sim is properly updated before I make a definitive statement though. I see no reason DfA won't be a PvP burst finisher given how they seem to be making Rogue tiers cut and dry PvE vs leveling/solo vs PvP talents.

[Deleted]

Even if anything outpaces DFA I will still take it, the animation is GLORIOUS and that alone is 50% of why I play rogue, the other one is SAP STEALTH.

[panzaghor]

I think MoS will outpace DfA on long fights for the simple fact that it essentially lets you macro SD with ShD and with good procs you should outpace the DfA finishers in damage with the crit Shadowstrikes. I'm waiting until the sim is properly updated before I make a definitive statement though. I see no reason DfA won't be a PvP burst finisher given how they seem to be making Rogue tiers cut and dry PvE vs leveling/solo vs PvP talents.

I'm already using it on ptr and its awesome, I think that it will be the best talent of this tier

[Deleted]

The thing is that DfA scales absurdly with Finality and coupled with DS it deals a tremendous amount of damage. I'm not so sure that Master of Shadow takes the win yet.

Also, Subterfuge will probably be the top talent in its tier. The nerfs to Shadow Focus and Nightstalker are too great and the possibility of an extra Shadowstrike +2 seconds of MoS means greater DPS. The "problem" is that it's much harder to pull off a good Shadow Dance with Subterfuge compared to the other two talents. Hence the possibility for Haste caps.

[xero93]

DfA does scale really well with Finality, the spec just feels terrible to play without MoS imo. I really wish they would give us some way to regen energy, because right now the spec is painful to play.

[defury]

DfA does scale really well with Finality, the spec just feels terrible to play without MoS imo. I really wish they would give us some way to regen energy, because right now the spec is painful to play.

Personally I find the weakness of backstab and the extreme powershift of shadow dance to make the spec more painful than energy regen ever will. Having the constant ever present prerequisite of pushing your shadow dance keybind before you can effectively play the spec feels like some sadistic payphone system where a quarter only lasts 5 seconds and you have a really important call to make.

Honestly It's why I quit the spec, I like the builder->finisher gameplay of Rogue but subs effectively turns that into "insert coin for 5 seconds" builder->finisher->game over insert another coin and it's just not fun to me. Honestly will probably go outlaw just for the fact that it's the only actual builder finisher spec (assassination is just a poors man feral druid) but unless they improve it's single target damage I'll probably just be DH.

[stevan021]

Personally I find the weakness of backstab and the extreme powershift of shadow dance to make the spec more painful than energy regen ever will. Having the constant ever present prerequisite of pushing your shadow dance keybind before you can effectively play the spec feels like some sadistic payphone system where a quarter only lasts 5 seconds and you have a really important call to make.

SO THIS LOL. I actually like the slowish regen but this pisses me off so much!

[elfporn]

Personally I find the weakness of backstab and the extreme powershift of shadow dance to make the spec more painful than energy regen ever will. Having the constant ever present prerequisite of pushing your shadow dance keybind before you can effectively play the spec feels like some sadistic payphone system where a quarter only lasts 5 seconds and you have a really important call to make.

Honestly It's why I quit the spec, I like the builder->finisher gameplay of Rogue but subs effectively turns that into "insert coin for 5 seconds" builder->finisher->game over insert another coin and it's just not fun to me. Honestly will probably go outlaw just for the fact that it's the only actual builder finisher spec (assassination is just a poors man feral druid) but unless they improve it's single target damage I'll probably just be DH.

All it is, is a faster paced burst-window spec. The same as it's been since find weakness was tied to ambush and shadowdance was introduced. Instead of a 10second burst window, it's a 3sec (or 5). You're supposed to press that button to do more damage. You're supposed to prepare to do as much damage as possible in the time allotted.

If you just want builder-->finisher gameplay with no skill needed, cap at 60 and play combat (a la combat daggers).

[stevan021]

If you just want builder-->finisher gameplay with no skill needed (a la combat daggers).

You talk like this is a bad thing.

[defury]

All it is, is a faster paced burst-window spec. The same as it's been since find weakness was tied to ambush and shadowdance was introduced. Instead of a 10second burst window, it's a 3sec (or 5). You're supposed to press that button to do more damage. You're supposed to prepare to do as much damage as possible in the time allotted.

If you just want builder-->finisher gameplay with no skill needed, cap at 60 and play combat (a la combat daggers).

Except with find weakness I wasn't pressing a button that had no other purpose than to unlock my abilities. Shadow dance was a DPS cooldown and bar paging existed so it felt fluid. Current shadow dance has become rotational and backstab and shadowstrike serve exactly the same purpose except you need to press a button to unlock shadowstrike.

You can have complex builder->finisher gameplay without having a gated ability mechanic. Live sub literally exists like this already. I mean if you want to think pressing one extra button before you press ambush is some sort of higher level skilled gameplay that's up to you but I don't find that unnecessary step to be fun or interesting. There's no skill in pressing Shadow dance once every 10 seconds instead of once every minute it's just poor game design imo.

If shadow dance had some other interesting mechanic behind it maybe but as it is it's literally just press this so you can have better backstabs. Why not just make backstab good and find a better way to make the spec interesting and leave shadow dance a DPS cooldown.

Find weakness was interesting to manage, pressing shadow dance before you press shadow strike isn't interesting or hard.

[elfporn]

Except with find weakness I wasn't pressing a button that had no other purpose than to unlock my abilities. Shadow dance was a DPS cooldown and bar paging existed so it felt fluid. Current shadow dance has become rotational and backstab and shadowstrike serve exactly the same purpose except you need to press a button to unlock shadowstrike.

You can have complex builder->finisher gameplay without having a gated ability mechanic. Live sub literally exists like this already. I mean if you want to think pressing one extra button before you press ambush is some sort of higher level skilled gameplay that's up to you but I don't find that unnecessary step to be fun or interesting. There's no skill in pressing Shadow dance once every 10 seconds instead of once every minute it's just poor game design imo.

If shadow dance had some other interesting mechanic behind it maybe but as it is it's literally just press this so you can have better backstabs. Why not just make backstab good and find a better way to make the spec interesting and leave shadow dance a DPS cooldown.

Find weakness was interesting to manage, pressing shadow dance before you press shadow strike isn't interesting or hard.

You're arguing my point.

Shadowdance has always been that button you press in order to unlock stealth abilities (it still is). FW was just a debuff applied by one of the abilities unlocked by pressing shadowdance.

The faster shadowdance is indeed rotational now, but it's no less a cd that in order to get the most out of it, you have to plan for its use, and not just pooling, with our artifacts we should be planning to land a finality DFA or evisc during each shadowdance, and not need to refresh nightblade until after.

You don't just press ShD and keep on truckin, except with shadowstrike instead of backstab.

Live sub is a burst-window spec(just like the faster-paced legion). I use my shadowdance and vanish rotationally, plan for each use, execute as best i can, and plan for the next use.

If there's no skill in pressing ShD every 10sec, there's no skill in pressing it every 60sec. Either way, correct and full use of Shadowdance isn't just about pressing the button and continuing to press 2,2,3.

The biggest turnoff right now is the loss of bar paging for shadow dance - ShD is the CD we use to enable stealth abilities in combat, and so we should have our stealth bar, without the paging (which i fixed with a hardware-based keybind) it does indeed feel like "press here to hit harder"

FW was no more or less interesting to manage than any other debuff mechanic. And you still have to press shadow dance (or vanish) before you ambush, just like live, and just like legion.

I feel like i'm arguing about what shadow dance does, when it's not an argument. Does it "feel" like shit when you use it because they dropped bar paging and lost even the semblance of in-combat stealth? i fixed that shit asap, but not everyone has a keyboard that can do it. IMO no bar paging is the worst thing about the spec, it turned the whole thing into a massive clunk, like grandma with her too-short pegleg crossing the street on a unicycle

[Naiattavain]

id rather take live sub-rogue over legion sub-rogue. its going to get changed a lot till then.

[panzaghor]

You're arguing my point.

Shadowdance has always been that button you press in order to unlock stealth abilities (it still is). FW was just a debuff applied by one of the abilities unlocked by pressing shadowdance.

The faster shadowdance is indeed rotational now, but it's no less a cd that in order to get the most out of it, you have to plan for its use, and not just pooling, with our artifacts we should be planning to land a finality DFA or evisc during each shadowdance, and not need to refresh nightblade until after.

You don't just press ShD and keep on truckin, except with shadowstrike instead of backstab.

Live sub is a burst-window spec(just like the faster-paced legion). I use my shadowdance and vanish rotationally, plan for each use, execute as best i can, and plan for the next use.

If there's no skill in pressing ShD every 10sec, there's no skill in pressing it every 60sec. Either way, correct and full use of Shadowdance isn't just about pressing the button and continuing to press 2,2,3.

The biggest turnoff right now is the loss of bar paging for shadow dance - ShD is the CD we use to enable stealth abilities in combat, and so we should have our stealth bar, without the paging (which i fixed with a hardware-based keybind) it does indeed feel like "press here to hit harder"

FW was no more or less interesting to manage than any other debuff mechanic. And you still have to press shadow dance (or vanish) before you ambush, just like live, and just like legion.

I feel like i'm arguing about what shadow dance does, when it's not an argument. Does it "feel" like shit when you use it because they dropped bar paging and lost even the semblance of in-combat stealth? i fixed that shit asap, but not everyone has a keyboard that can do it. IMO no bar paging is the worst thing about the spec, it turned the whole thing into a massive clunk, like grandma with her too-short pegleg crossing the street on a unicycle

If they don't fix it till August 30th someone is going to make an addon for it

[Deleted]

id rather take live sub-rogue over legion sub-rogue. its going to get changed a lot till then.

No, and I bet it wont even be changed at all, at this point most specs are basically fixed.