BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Noradin]

Deciding to punish a nation that peacefully and democractically decided to leave the European Union would be seen as being against democracy.

And i'm really not sure how we are ingracious.

We aren't punishing them for peacefully and democratically deciding to leave, we might punish them if they threaten us with sabotage to get deals they do not deserve.
Taking back things they rejected, such as better membership deals cannot be called punishment, can it?

[Elegiac]

Garbage you say. Clearly those countries are hurting plenty economically wise and do not know what is best for them.
Oh motherfucking wait, they do.

Are you from sweden?

Thankfully I am not.

[Slant]

First of all Slant, I don't know how many times I've said this in this thread today but; I voted Remain, I believe we're better off in the E.U., but that's not happening, and there is no point sitting around whining about a decision that has been made. It's time to look at the deals, opportunities and future, not at the vote. That's old history now as far as I am concerned.

Secondly, Ignoring someone on a Forum because they're being overly aggressive isn't in any way related to my arguments or points I am making. MMO-Champion isn' the EU, I don't have to accept his views or opinions in any way to be here, we're not a co-operative. It's a gaming forum.

Well, that's fair enough...

[Kalis]

Yes Cyprus can and will continue to veto endlessly. Simply put unless Turkey leave there is nothing Turkey can do to convince Cyprus not to Veto.

Not necessarily true, the Republic of Cyprus want an equitable deal and could accept a Turkish force within their borders, similar to the British bases, if they feel it is workable.

[Elegiac]

No, I think they'll make us a similar deal to what we had, so that they can retain the UK market, while not having to deal with Britain on a political level anymore.

Win/Win for everyone.

So basically nothing changes except the EU becomes even less democratic with regards to UK affairs.

It's almost as if this whole Brexit deal is a gigantic crock of shit constructed by demagogues...

[Slant]

You believe that Greece has done less fiscal damage than the UK has done right now? Really?

For Germany? Have you seen the stock market? Oh right, I forgot. You lot aren't concerned with that anymore. Well, we'll see about that when you ask for access to our market.

[Deleted]

Why not allow people to vote from age 16, or 12, then.

I suggest rereading what you just posted

[Hyve]

I'm not sure if the exceptions for countries can make their rights lower than what is in the treaties and the right to leave is a treaty right.

Sorry, I don't understand. It might be the lack of caffeine talking, but I'm not even really sure what you're saying here. Mind rewording it?

[Elegiac]

Why don't we allow 12 year olds to fuck, didactic?

Same reason.

Because there is vested social interest in not permitting them to do so. The same argument can be made for voting caps regarding long term decisions.

[Noradin]

They seem to think it will be one party with 100% power and the other with 0%, but that is not how it will work when the EU is negotiating with one of the top ten economies in the world.

Wasn't that your position? That one party (the UK) has 100% power and can dictate terms to the EU who have 0%.

[Theodarzna]

If they treat us as threats, then the people who are threats will only get more power.

This vote has been won because people wanted to give the middle finger to a Union that they thought was undemocratically telling them how to live there lives (whether this is accurate or not doesn't really matter, once again, I voted Remain). Now we aren't the only country in the EU with an independence party, infact I think pretty much every EU member has one. Now if the EU starts treating a country that practices democracy in its most basic form as a "threat", that is only going to add more fuel to the fire that these political parties want to light.

This will be the last thing I say on this matter, because all we are doing now is going round in circles, so get the last word in, and then lets agree to disagree.





Yep, and those of us who voted to Remain have to deal with that as well, it sucks, but thats life.

I was recently convinced to say "remain is best," mostly for the work the EU does on for Minority languages. Admittedly some of the attitudes here towards democracy are testing that once fragile acceptance of the EU, though still critical of its other aspects.

[Slant]

No, I think they'll make us a similar deal to what we had, so that they can retain the UK market, while not having to deal with Britain on a political level anymore.

Win/Win for everyone.

If they start talking about a similar deal, you can expect some angry protests starting. That shit just won't fly.

[Deleted]

I wasn't aware that I spoke for the EU committee, want to cut the crap and sit back while the adults talk or do you just want to get nasty?

Then why say WE need to explain to YOU

[Combatbutler]

You believe that Greece has done less fiscal damage than the UK has done right now? Really?

Greece is a small economy, so yes. The Uk did far more damage to the EU, especially the possible consequences down the road, the brexit could potentially trigger the destruction of the entire eu.

[Mehrunes]

I don't think you get that people have a right NOT to vote just as much as they have a right to vote. Nobody said a majority of the population, they are saying a majority of the voters. Just like if Trump wins the "majority" of the country didn't vote for him, the majority of VOTERS did.

Voting should be a civil duty, not a right to be honest.

[Wildtree]

What's the chance of the UK pulling out of the EEA anyway now?

[Deleted]

We aren't punishing them for peacefully and democratically deciding to leave, we might punish them if they threaten us with sabotage to get deals they do not deserve.
Taking back things they rejected, such as better membership deals cannot be called punishment, can it?

And I haven't said anything about sabotaging anyone, take that nonsense up with Kalis.

I'm arguing against the people who want to punish the UK for leaving, not arguing for the people who want to use "gunboat diplomacy" or holding Ireland hostage or whatever to get a better deal in the EU.

[Noradin]

No contract should ever forbid someone to leave said contract. That's not sensible, that's abusive and stupid. The world is an ever changing place, should we lock ourselves to our current understanding of world politics right now, and never adapt or change to the world around us?

You are allowed to leave, but you will have to to it to the previously agreed upon terms and don't get to hold the ones staying hostage by threatening sabotage.

[Kalis]

"Oh, we just tanked the entire EU economy worse than Greece ever did. My bad, let's be friends now.. how about that rebate for later, eh? Come on.."

What you're not realising is that "the top ten economy" relies on your financial sector and... you know, companies like Volkswagen keeping your auto industry alive. Which they already said they'd do, so you're lucky. But we know how fickle companies can be when it doesn't pay off. How much is keeping Bentley a British brand worth to you? They could just relocate the shit, because... Volkswagen.

I am still not getting why people seem to think that the EU going into economic war with the UK is a good idea, the EU themselves would not want to do that, so why posters on here think it makes sense is mystifying.

[Hyve]

For Germany? Have you seen the stock market? Oh right, I forgot. You lot aren't concerned with that anymore. Well, we'll see about that when you ask for access to our market.

Another person with quite an excessive amount of aggression over this whole decision. It's like none of you were told about this being voted on a while back, or that there is a chance the Leave might win.

I mean, I will add that, No. The UK has not caused as much fiscal damage to the EU (as you claimed) as Greece has. Had this whole thing been damaging, of course, and that's sucky, but you know what's not going to help? Making trade difficult or impossible. Opening the trade channels, making it easy, even with tariffs, will see the economies bounce back, bring stability to the markets and restore any lost faith in the EU.