1. #7361
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoranon View Post
    Be frank, you are in no way for a democracy. You clearly consider yourself better than the common people and you consider it your right, or perhaps even a duty to rule them. It is for their own good in the end you seem to think.
    There are specific reasons as to why I am not in favor of despotism, most of them being proven in the example of the First French Republic.

  2. #7362
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    I think you confuse, deal with the UK as if it were anyone else, and treating them harshly.
    the EU wont be mean to the UK, it will just negotiate the same way the Eurozone negotiated with Greece - exploiting its leverage.
    I have no problem with that. But if it's the case, the economic repercussion will be rather mediocre because the UK isnt Greece. And their prime partner is the US anyway.

  3. #7363
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    Nope - The treaty says that the country wishing to leave must inform the EU.
    Inform is not defined.
    They could take Cameron's speech where he talked about the vote and said 'it must be respected' - In short, the EU can deem it self notified whenever it so whishes.
    Nah, that has been waved off already, The consensus is that it's up to Britain to determine when the clock starts running. That's how the laws were written.
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  4. #7364
    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    Losing that £19 billion a month in exports to the UK while the negotiations are going on would hurt the EU more than simply giving us 2 years to complete our negotiations and having no interruption in exports.
    It's going to be fun to see the leave side dancing around the fact that they want to stay for 2 years when they were so keen on leaving as soon as possible.

  5. #7365
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    Once again, the EU is not run by children, they will not destroy the UK to set some sort of example, because it is not in their interests to do so.

    I have explained that the EU and UK economies are intertwined, especially with Ireland, yet that seems to have gone over your head, as you clearly do not understand what it means for negotiations.

    There will be a deal acceptable to both the UK and EU, because it is in all their interests to do so, whereas acting like a bitter jilted girlfriend is not, even though it is what you would do.
    And me saying how any deal that will be worse than what UK has now, which is the only possible outcome due to the difference in negotiating power would already constitute making an example of UK went over yours. Hell, I even said that even changing nothing other than removing UK's vote would constitute as such. But who cares about reading, nationalist chestbeating for ze win. Humor me and point out the post in which I said anything about destruction of the UK.

    Yes, the economies are intertwined, you haven't discovered America here. But doing anything to them will hurt UK more due to the size difference. So they aren't in a position to do shit to Ireland no matter how many times you repeat it. It won't magically become reality just because ze empire is eternal in your mind. And just because the deal will be acceptable to the UK (again, great discovery here, if it wasn't acceptable it would be peace terms, not a deal) doesn't mean it will be some amazing victory for UK. Acceptable != what UK would prefer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    The reason the UK got special snowflake status within the EU was because we have a powerful economy in relation to most other EU members, even with a downturn we will still have a powerful economy, one that is still important to other EU members.
    And because you threw a super adult tantrum whenever you didn't get your way. Germany economy is stronger. Miraculously they have less of a snowflake status than you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    The EU will act out of self interest, that self interest also means making sure the UK does not take down the economies of Ireland, Germany, etc., they will not spite the UK to prove a point, as the only point they would be making with that is they are more intersted in revenge than the remaining member states of the EU.
    But they will not cover UK's bed with rose petals either, because that's also not in their interest. They will use their stronger position to make a deal that's favorable to them because that's the reality of negotiation. Even with UK's He-Men diplomatic squad.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2016-06-24 at 07:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  6. #7366
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    it is officious liberal elitist snobs like David Axelrod is what the majority in the UK voted to leave and get away from

    how dare those uncleansed uneducated ignorant rubes make their own decisions don't they know you need to let us ivory tower educated enlighten liberal elitist make the decisions for you
    In a Technocracy there can be no Solidarity, Technocracy is the opposite of Solidarity. The working class knew that the Technocrats did not have their interests at heart.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  7. #7367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayze View Post
    Best result we could have hoped for, given that nothing was going to improve for us since wealth doesn't trickle down outside of bread and circuses given all the austerity bollocks that saw--and continues to see--local government shafted to bail out the bankers.

    At least this way London feels the pain too.
    I'm sorry but I don't think making sure that everyone in the UK suffers is the "best result", i'm not that bitter.

    And I come from a mining town, from a family that before my generation had been coal miners for 5 generations, and whose father, grandfather and uncles fought in every battle of the Mining Strikes.

  8. #7368
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    Well if your only example is ultra small it would be logical to think their scale could be playing a role in their effectiveness.
    And just as logical to assume otherwise since the scale of government has nothing to do with its effectiveness, hence why local government in say the United States is so incompetent.

  9. #7369
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Oh but Solidarity of Europeans, Is not the Continent all in this together? So I guess its Solidarity as long as its convenient and inexpensive.
    Greece is neither convenient with all the German hate, nor inexpensive, eating up billions by the hundreds.. you're either blind or very ignorant as to what's going on. But shit stirring seems to be a hobby of yours so, carry on... enjoy yourself.
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  10. #7370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoranon View Post
    No it cannot do that. There will have to be an official notification, not one line in a resignation speech.
    Where does it say that?
    There is no clarity whatsoever on the 'notification'.
    2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
    There is no requirement on it being, official, in writing, or direct to them.
    So yeah, the PM saying that the vote must be respected can certainly count.

  11. #7371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I'd say no, considering Norway and Switzerland haven't actively done anything to threaten European integrity.
    If the UK was such a pain, and such a whiner and slowing down the EU so much, then the EU should be happy that we've left. Surely?

  12. #7372
    I mean, isn't this the classical problem of International Law? Nations want their sovereignty, but we want some way to hold other nations accountable for when they do something wrong. To a lesser extent, we have a microcosm of that debate in the United States with States Rights vs. Federalism.

    The problem of BREXIT is that the EU is stronger with the UK in it, and the UK feels like it's unfairly carrying too much of a load for lagging members of the EU (whether that's true or not is irrelevant). The problem is, Europe as a whole needs a stable, multi-national entity, because it's too small and interconnected (area wise) to afford Poland and other former Eastern bloc countries from collapsing. Collapsing individual countries cause instability in the whole region, so the EU rightly looks to stablize that....at the cost of the most prosperous members of the EU. Germany has accepted that role, but it seems the UK electorate hasn't. Ironically, it's now up to the Germans to keep Europe stable.

    Globalization is real, and, at this point, probably unavoidable. This isn't the 19th or even early 20th century, isolationism is simply not feasible. What I cannot understand, as a progressive myself, why people can't understand that if they want the benefits of freedom of capital, they have to put up with the sacrifices of freedom of labor? I mean, how capitalist is it for companies to dumpster dive to countries where they can lower production costs, but not allow labor forces to seek better employment and standards? That would be the push and pull of a market-based capitalist society. But short-sighted people simply want cheap goods but not lose jobs but also not have to compete for jobs against immigrant populations. It's a mind-boggling mess. The EU (and the Schengen area, imo) were all about promoting free trade - but 1st world countries, like the U.S., Germany, and the UK, have to accept the ramifications of being a truly competitive market.

    This is why, personally, I tend to be more democratic socialist in my thoughts. There is no real capitalism (or globalization) in the world, just an exploitative attempt by rich multi-national corporations to keep their production costs low and their labor forces locked in place. The EU tried to counteract that, and now one of its most stable members is rebelling back to that short-sighted, 20th century viewpoint. Growing up, people used to say, "Capitalism is the worst economic system, except for the others" (echoing Churchill's sentiments on democracy) but I don't think that's true any more.

  13. #7373
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    I have no problem with that. But if it's the case, the economic repercussion will be rather mediocre because the UK isnt Greece. And their prime partner is the US anyway.
    If you took away the ponzi scheme financial services it is pretty close. No sunny beaches either.

  14. #7374
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Penalised? I mean I do not actually expect a sub 10 post poster to make a quality post, but let me explain something to you. The UK isn't entitled to this membership or the special treatment they get. They get them, because the EU wanted them to have it. It's a PRIVILEGE that the UK should be fucking thankful for. What you're calling "penalising" is what Norway calls "the only deal we got" or Gambia calls "I wish I had that kind of a deal with the EU". That's business from the other side of the EU border. So, if you want out, and you vote out, and the decision is out.. then, get the fuck out! And stop begging me for handouts on your way to the door or.. lol, call me penalising you when I tell you to get the fuck out.

    The only country that has alienated anyone is the UK. For the past 30 fucking years. And some people are thoroughly sick of their antics. But hey, you can involve NATO in this, it has nothing to do with it but you are losing the argument on the EU side, so why not give you that chance to save face...
    What's so good about our deal with the EU? We buy more of your stuff than we sell. We give you lots of money, get nothing in return.

  15. #7375
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracos854 View Post
    It's going to be fun to see the leave side dancing around the fact that they want to stay for 2 years when they were so keen on leaving as soon as possible.
    They were doing it this morning when they were backtracking on all the other claims they made.

  16. #7376
    Deleted
    I wonder if the five presidents of the EU will cut back on some of those private jet, caviar fuelled world tours they regularly go on?

  17. #7377
    Scarab Lord Zoranon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    There are specific reasons as to why I am not in favor of despotism, most of them being proven in the example of the First French Republic.
    Well if you rule by taking in account only the interests, but not the wishes of your citizens, you will end up in some form of despotism eventually. Power corrupts and all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by b2121945 View Post
    Don't see what's wrong with fighting alongside Nazi Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    someone who disagrees with me is simply wrong.

  18. #7378
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I'd say no, considering Norway and Switzerland haven't actively done anything to threaten European integrity.
    So willingly and democratically leaving over a period of a few years is now "Threatening the UE" ?
    We got fucking Vladimir Putin over here.

  19. #7379
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    *Looks at the economic clusterfuck going on right now* Gee, looks like it was remain camp who was right on this one. Meanwhile leavers brushed it aside as a campaign of fear.
    I don't think so at all, wasn't remainers saying something like the Britains economy and trading would die and leavers saying something like Britain would be over-run with foreigners forever? Both ofc wrong.

    It' would be silly and very counter productivefor anyone in Britain to get consumed by despair by anything, I think everyone knew at first the market won't react positively to an exit news, but the economy and trading have certainly not died, nor should they be thinking it has and will.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2016-06-24 at 05:30 PM.

  20. #7380
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    If the UK was such a pain, and such a whiner and slowing down the EU so much, then the EU should be happy that we've left. Surely?
    People are already saying they have a double feeling about this, one thing they don't like it as the EU is weaker as a whole on the other side, they aren't sad the UK is leaving for the reasons you just mentioned.

    Verhofstad just said that on the news, i doubt he's the only one also.

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