[Enhancement] Future Legion Resources

[Futhark]

If the spec is now slow with Boulderfist(And i tried it on PTR to compare), the the intention of that talent is now fulfilled. That was the aim from the very start. People who always want something to press should not take Boulderfist, they should stick with Rockbiter spam.

See this is what people get by assuming being overpowered is normal. Before this patch it was fucking ridiculous. Drowning in Maelstrom, almost spamming Stormstrike, it wasn't fun at all. You were never supposed to be that powerful, especially with no gear. You guys who want to spam? You have Rockbiter. Those that don't? Boulderfist.

However, this isn't the end of tuning. Rather sick of all the sky is falling shit in EVERY class thread where downward adjustments are made. Enhancement was disgusting. It needs tuning. This is a start. Small adjustments needed but it IS a step in the right direction.

This.

I was disappointed that everyone was jumping on the Boulderfist bandwagon because it was the OP way to go and everyone here knew it. Now I get my slow hard-hitting playstyle back. More tuning will come, the PTR is not level 110, etc. etc.

Edit: Kept reading, got to the beta board updates. Looking forward to see if the Windfury/Maelstom changes can pull off the slow rotation that I want plus the GCD locked rotation that Enh Shaman historically love to play.

[Deleted]

I haven't seen anyone mention the pvp changes yet, so here goes:
- Nerf to Healing Surge => is this spelling trouble? I think they had buffed the artifact trait that enhances it not to long ago, or didn't they? How much is it healing for now, and will it be enough?
- Counterstrike Totem => Nerf to cooldown and duration do not amount to as much the limitation of direct damage only. I guess it will still be hilarious against enemies popping their cooldowns Honestly, I expected the 100% dmg thing to be lowered to 50% or something.
- Ethereal Form => The biggest drawback, the 200(!) extra damage from magic sources was finally taken out. Man, that brainfart lasted a while. It'll also not replace Astral Shift but instead will be its own ability, presenting a very good addition to survivability we sorely will need. We'll lose our double heal though.
Still, 15s duration every 45s would be madly good against melee classes (especially warriors, rogues, ferals, but also hunters) even with the damage lock-out. Expecting nerfes there.

[Ranmauri]

What's this about a nerf to Healing Surge? Aside from having less maelstrom to spend on it (meaning now it'll have a cast time more often, which admittedly sucks for DPS), it costs less mana now, which is technically a buff--and the healing hasn't changed for some time, so far as I'm aware.

Also, I figured the Windfury thing was a goof. I think this'll leave us at a fairly comfortable place. I noticed someone mentioned trying to float around 80 MP for Stormbringer procs? Isn't that what we're supposed to do anyway? That's what I'd been doing in my testing, and it felt pretty comfortable.

[Jotaux]

I noticed someone mentioned trying to float around 80 MP for Stormbringer procs? Isn't that what we're supposed to do anyway? That's what I'd been doing in my testing, and it felt pretty comfortable.

Stormstrike had generated 10mp before so 2 of them would have given 20mp so you would have only needed 60mp if you took tempest. not accounting for windfury procs or autoattacks.

I just want this work day to end so I can get home and try out different talents! I really hate not being able to switch them up in between fights when I'm dungeoning

[Guchie]

This.

I was disappointed that everyone was jumping on the Boulderfist bandwagon because it was the OP way to go and everyone here knew it. Now I get my slow hard-hitting playstyle back. More tuning will come, the PTR is not level 110, etc. etc.

Edit: Kept reading, got to the beta board updates. Looking forward to see if the Windfury/Maelstom changes can pull off the slow rotation that I want plus the GCD locked rotation that Enh Shaman historically love to play.

I don't get blizzard at all. The numbers are high on enhance in Beta, we all knew that, but the change completely changes the playstyle of the class, no longer are we dumping and building maelstrom, now we're just starved and wasting globals.

If I wanted to play like that I'd roll a Feral druid. If this doesn't get change I will legit look into a refund, as the only class I enjoy is getting gutted into a weird amalgamation of the resources of a warrior and the feel of a feral but the damage of a kitten.

[BiggestNoob]

Also, I figured the Windfury thing was a goof. I think this'll leave us at a fairly comfortable place. I noticed someone mentioned trying to float around 80 MP for Stormbringer procs? Isn't that what we're supposed to do anyway? That's what I'd been doing in my testing, and it felt pretty comfortable.

You can treat Stormbringer procs as a resource. It procs, you have 2 half cost Stormstrikes to spend. Every hit also has a chance to trigger this (let's say 10%), and now you need 80 MP to spend all of that (you'll get 5-10 back while spending it, so you're left at a net of 10). So in 3 hits of Stormstrike, you have a 47% chance of triggering Stormbringer again if each hit (MH/OH) can trigger the proc at a 10% rate (which is going to be reasonably obtainable). That's excluding autoattacks which will make it slightly higher. So about half the time when you're spending Stormbringer procs, you'll proc it again, resulting in 2 more charges. With the current MP generation, you have issues spending those. If it happens from the first 2 hits (~34.3% chance) you get to spend 40 MP for 2 Stormstrikes instead of just the base Stormstrike, meaning 80 MP for 4 casts. If this proc happens again, you won't with the current MP generation have the capability of spending these procs. Even if you 2x Boulderfist at this point you're only at 40 which would let you spend 2 SS, but if you also need to refresh an empowerment, you're talking about autos and melee hits that can proc Stormbringer being necessary to prepare to actually spend the procs you already have.

We went from overcapping on MP to overcapping on Stormbringer procs, and as we get more gear and these procs become more frequent, you'll never be able to actually spend all the procs you get. This will also swing the build away from anything else that consumes MP but can't compete with a Stormbringer'd Stormstrike (think weapon traits here, they're 50% stronger than regular Stormstrikes at half the cost). This further forces a build and feels worse from a gameplay perspective.

This makes Enhance a build spamming heavy / spend spec that's identical to all the others like that in the game with empty globals and with a resource capping problem that feels like shit because you can't spend these procs that hit incredibly hard. Other specs don't have this issue, and one of the things that made Enhance feel really good is you could feel the power when you got lucky and had chain Stormbringers because you had the MP generation to spend it (and now we'll only be able to do that during DW). All because people complained about capping Maelstrom. Forced talents because nothing else can compete, empty globals, and now wasting a resource that felt like it mattered vs being starved in one that still doesn't feel impactful. This Enhance is the complete inverse to what made the spec fun before this change.

Boulderfist already set a max to how often you would use your spender -- the other talents needed to be adjusted so that this kind of playstyle (slow but hard hitting) would work. Instead, what we got was the entire spec was slowed so much that all you do is spam Rockbiter or stand around doing nothing if you're running Boulderfist. All that feeling of impact was lost.

[Darleth]

I haven't seen anyone mention the pvp changes yet, so here goes:
- Nerf to Healing Surge => is this spelling trouble? I think they had buffed the artifact trait that enhances it not to long ago, or didn't they? How much is it healing for now, and will it be enough?

Its only a mana reduction. We can spam it more now, actually increasing our survivability.

- Counterstrike Totem => Nerf to cooldown and duration do not amount to as much the limitation of direct damage only. I guess it will still be hilarious against enemies popping their cooldowns Honestly, I expected the 100% dmg thing to be lowered to 50% or something.

Well, probably more in line with everything else now. I mean, it was quite overpowered with a 60 second duration.

- Ethereal Form => The biggest drawback, the 200(!) extra damage from magic sources was finally taken out. Man, that brainfart lasted a while. It'll also not replace Astral Shift but instead will be its own ability, presenting a very good addition to survivability we sorely will need. We'll lose our double heal though.
Still, 15s duration every 45s would be madly good against melee classes (especially warriors, rogues, ferals, but also hunters) even with the damage lock-out. Expecting nerfes there.

Its finally a viable choice, at least for going somewhat anti melee that even deal a bit of magic damage.

[Nitwit]

So in 3 hits of Stormstrike, you have a 47% chance of triggering Stormbringer again if each hit (MH/OH) can trigger the proc at a 10% rate

And they can't, of course, since Stormbringer only procs on mainhand attacks.

[nazrakin]

I haven't seen anyone mention the pvp changes yet, so here goes:
- Nerf to Healing Surge => is this spelling trouble? I think they had buffed the artifact trait that enhances it not to long ago, or didn't they? How much is it healing for now, and will it be enough?
- Counterstrike Totem => Nerf to cooldown and duration do not amount to as much the limitation of direct damage only. I guess it will still be hilarious against enemies popping their cooldowns Honestly, I expected the 100% dmg thing to be lowered to 50% or something.
- Ethereal Form => The biggest drawback, the 200(!) extra damage from magic sources was finally taken out. Man, that brainfart lasted a while. It'll also not replace Astral Shift but instead will be its own ability, presenting a very good addition to survivability we sorely will need. We'll lose our double heal though.
Still, 15s duration every 45s would be madly good against melee classes (especially warriors, rogues, ferals, but also hunters) even with the damage lock-out. Expecting nerfes there.

It still replaces Astral Shift.

[Ranmauri]

Plastkin, are you taking into account that Windfury will be generating maelstrom? Because that will still be able to proc off of Stormstrike as well (all mainhand hits--that means Crash Lightning too, I believe), and that effectively means the only maelstrom nerf we've gotten is the fact that our special abilities no longer directly generate maelstrom--which is reasonable, because that means their tooltip costs are their actual costs now. Once the Windfury fix goes up, we'll see how it is, but I don't think we'll be nearly as starved as we are right now.

[Tome]

I find the survival of the spec rather hard. Healing Surge got nerfed? Tooltip says a heal for 30k+ but only heal 15k+

It really doesn't help all that much in PvP. I get damaged for 60k

[Deleted]

Its only a mana reduction. We can spam it more now, actually increasing our survivability.

Ah, I misread it then! doh!

Well, probably more in line with everything else now. I mean, it was quite overpowered with a 60 second duration.

Definately. I guess a decent enemy would kill it though, so the 60s duration seemed kinda pointless, especially considering its immobility and limited range. You wont fight enemies in the same spot fot that long and not have them notive that thing hitting them all the time. 15s are plenty to kill someone with all his dps cooldowns up. This not longer working against dots though means that we'll have a couple of enemies in part immune to it though (shadow/affli/uh, right?).

- - - Updated - - -

It still replaces Astral Shift.

damn. they could the "replces Astral shift" part out in the tooltip, so I was sure of it . Does this make it useless against casters then? Maybe the talent wont be all that good then after all, unless you end up against a pure melee team...could actually mean a nerf to survivability if we lost our double heal talent for it...

[nazrakin]

Ah, I misread it then! doh!


Definately. I guess a decent enemy would kill it though, so the 60s duration seemed kinda pointless, especially considering its immobility and limited range. You wont fight enemies in the same spot fot that long and not have them notive that thing hitting them all the time. 15s are plenty to kill someone with all his dps cooldowns up. This not longer working against dots though means that we'll have a couple of enemies in part immune to it though (shadow/affli/uh, right?).

- - - Updated - - -


damn. they could the "replces Astral shift" part out in the tooltip, so I was sure of it . Does this make it useless against casters then? Maybe the talent wont be all that good then after all, unless you end up against a pure melee team...could actually mean a nerf to survivability if we lost our double heal talent for it...

I think the missing "replaces Astral Shift" is a datamining thing because the ingame tooltip says it. But yeah, losing the double heal talent make that row much worst and the malestrom nerf on top of it makes it hard to get out the little bit of healing we have.

[valkhy]

So after some test on PTR,

Yes we have some trouble FOR NOW with Maelstrom cause Windfury not procing Maelstrom Weapon.
Haste has a really good synergy with Boulderfist (less CD More Spam), you build more Maelstrom with autoattack (and windfury soon too).

Maybe nerfing Ancestral Swiftness was a bad idea with the nerf of Maelstrom generation. Maybe a revert next build since 2% isn't too much.
Stormbringer still procs a lot and have to, to dynamise our gameplay.

Currently, i don't use lava lash at all cause i don't have Maelstrom to discard. So if Gameplay stays like this, i think it will be a problem.

I don't want to say they did shit and all cause we know they did like half tuning to the class. But right now testing the spec is really difficult to do.
Boulderfist still is good, damage are high (too much since it's the real problem, for me boulderfist have to give quickly Maelstrom even if it doesn't do crazy damage).

In this situation of Maelstrom starving, Hailstorm and Earthen spike can't compete with their counterpart since they add Maelstrom cost to the rotation with is already starving XD. So it's a little sad since they can add complexity to the rotation easily and still make it shine, with good feels.

Didn't do much test about AOE to see if the nerf was too much or not.

[Darleth]

Didn't do much test about AOE to see if the nerf was too much or not.

Damagewise its okay. It's not as strong for singletarget DPS anymore which is fine, since it was never intended for that much extra st-damage.

[BiggestNoob]

And they can't, of course, since Stormbringer only procs on mainhand attacks.

Stormstrike hits with both, so that just changes the numbers to 27% and 19%. It still happens with some regularity, but less now that mastery's value was decimated.

Plastkin, are you taking into account that Windfury will be generating maelstrom? Because that will still be able to proc off of Stormstrike as well (all mainhand hits--that means Crash Lightning too, I believe), and that effectively means the only maelstrom nerf we've gotten is the fact that our special abilities no longer directly generate maelstrom--which is reasonable, because that means their tooltip costs are their actual costs now. Once the Windfury fix goes up, we'll see how it is, but I don't think we'll be nearly as starved as we are right now.

Windfury rarely happens outside of DW. I'm taking that into account, and all I'm seeing is that we'll want to be starved when we pop DW, which isn't guaranteed, and most likely we'll be throwing LL's to prevent overcapping, which is just removing MP you would've theoretically used on Stormstrikes, so the gain is a tiny amount of damage from LL rather than having less of an issue with MP constraints. Windfury isn't reliable, so when you get a Stormbringer proc and you're trying to generate to use it, you can easily lose both procs via Tempest, which is a huge problem. The only way to counteract that is just to run no mastery at all because you don't want Stormbringer procs, which effectively means our spec is now largely just spamming the abilities it has on CD because your Windfury is rare (only cool when DW is active) and Stormbringer is rare if you're not stacking mastery, so you're just a haste/crit heavy running a build/spend spam just like every other generic shitty spec in this game. It's even exclusive of our utility, which is mindboggling.

This kind of generation curve isn't conducive to the kind of fun play that Enhance had. Just like to make the spec slower with Boulderfist they had to completely destroy every build, in order to make these things matter you have to have a much higher more steady MP generation, and Windfury can't do that because it's extremely rare by design.

[Ranmauri]

I honestly don't know if you can say Mastery's value has been "decimated." It scales at half the value it used to (16:1, now), yes, but considering that means we're at 7% proc chance on Windfury and Stormbringer at 32% Mastery (a reasonable amount in basic 110 blues, as far as I can tell), which is only a percentage or two behind where we were before the nerf, this just means we'll have more reasonable scaling throughout the expansion. With the old scaling, we probably would have gotten Mastery up to around, what, 55% or 60% by the expansion's end (do tell me if I'm totally off-base here, folks)? That would mean a proc chance of about 10-11%. Now, with the same amount of Mastery, we'll be at about 8-9% proc chance--not that far behind, really.

It's possible Mastery will get more retuning as well--maybe even return to separate proc chance numbers for Windfury and Stormbringer, which seemed like a better design to me in the first place.

[Worgar]

well the spec feels like hot garbage to play now incomparison to how it was before (both with and without boulderfist talent). they basically killed off several of the talents with our mp nerf, btw can we please get the old WF animation back? it would make it so much easier to see when it procs.

[BiggestNoob]

I honestly don't know if you can say Mastery's value has been "decimated." It scales at half the value it used to (16:1, now), yes, but considering that means we're at 7% proc chance on Windfury and Stormbringer at 32% Mastery (a reasonable amount in basic 110 blues, as far as I can tell), which is only a percentage or two behind where we were before the nerf, this just means we'll have more reasonable scaling throughout the expansion. With the old scaling, we probably would have gotten Mastery up to around, what, 55% or 60% by the expansion's end (do tell me if I'm totally off-base here, folks)? That would mean a proc chance of about 10-11%. Now, with the same amount of Mastery, we'll be at about 8-9% proc chance--not that far behind, really.

It's possible Mastery will get more retuning as well--maybe even return to separate proc chance numbers for Windfury and Stormbringer, which seemed like a better design to me in the first place.

The problem is fundamentally having too many Stormbringers with a hard MP limitation means the benefit of getting a proc is diminished, and in effect that means mastery's value goes down further. It was straight up nerfed in scaling and on top of that AS and Landslide were nerfed, so it's already likely behind haste, but if you can't actually use the Stormbringer procs reliably, it's pointless to go mastery.

[Lanthal]

That wasnt a nerf to hot Hands but a tooltip correction.

ahhh ok thanks