Are you satisfied with the current iteration of Ret in the Legion beta?

[wonderlust]

All they'd have to do to make Ret 100% more fun to play IMO is adding the WoD version of Final Verdict (that gives a buff to the next Divine Storm) instead of the current one that just buffs TV damage on Tier 15, and adding Empowered Divine Storm as one of the Tier 60 options (we don't really need two different types of buffs to Blade of Justice, do we? Roll them into one).

I'd pick those two talents (plus Fires of Justice) without ever looking back, and Ret would be fun to play again.

[Ryuji]

They also need to make Ret's healing not awful, self-healing specifically. My Flash of Light may as well not even bother getting pressed. I did a test on survivability with the Pit over in Gorgrond(since Tanaan derped out for me) and my ret I imported over with pretty decent gear(like 735 ilvl ish) was having a hard time staying alive when currently I could lol about and stomp all the mobs there. Sure with wings and ring I can hit pretty hard but my sustain and survivability just feels...wrong now. I know it's not really a good test but eh. Not really a fan of PvP, hard to think that it'd be much different though in terms of trying to stay alive.

[Snegovik]

They also need to make Ret's healing not awful, self-healing specifically. My Flash of Light may as well not even bother getting pressed. I did a test on survivability with the Pit over in Gorgrond(since Tanaan derped out for me) and my ret I imported over with pretty decent gear(like 735 ilvl ish) was having a hard time staying alive when currently I could lol about and stomp all the mobs there. Sure with wings and ring I can hit pretty hard but my sustain and survivability just feels...wrong now. I know it's not really a good test but eh. Not really a fan of PvP, hard to think that it'd be much different though in terms of trying to stay alive.

Yep our survival is terrible in PvP atm, no instant heals, no constant SS, not even SOL or seal dancing so gg...even in duels unless we finish fight fast, we are dead meat vs any long fights vs rogues, Demo locks, mages, monks, etc

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

Blizzard's whipping bitch since end of Wrath going forward..coming up on 8 years and a 4th xpac of being a joke. Gotta love Blizzard's plans for us..oh wait they havent had one of those in nearly a century. They basically have turned us into a worse arms warrior with a blue rage bar with how judgment and our horrible mastery change works now..it might aswell be Co-Smash with a different name....

We get no cleave whatsoever outside of divine storm, with seal of the righteous, and hammer of righteousness removed.. So our only option is a 3 GCD wait to even use this one AoE option and zero on demand multi-target with what one whole attack we have hits for shit nothing like everything else we have besides TV, partway in thanks to this "single target only now, lol" joke mastery swap Blizz gave us so we have this huge step backward as a spec to return to the days players pissed and whined about us, and players did the same of the playstyle of being "all burst, nothing else" that they've tried to divert us from..

Our talent choices are the exact opposite of Blizzard's claimed intention of "you can pick which you want to suit your playstyle" when almost every tier of damage abilities (15-30-60-100) has two single target choices and a single AoE focused choice that we're going to have to constantly be shifting back and forth from everytime a fight calls for any kind of cleave, at the cost of what single target ability or quality of life buff we previously had. They took us from 6 attacks and 2 finishers to 3 and 2..flash of light heals for practically nothing and our quick, on-demand survivability self healing and damage mitigation (divine protection) is gone..

We somehow retained this setup we have in WoD of "You suck shit outside of this certain time span" that is our current "Avenging Wrath up for our damage to be even slightly noticeable" and how judgment will work to do the same. "Was the cooldown up so you could put up your debuff and do actual damage?"..the two are practically the same, if it wasnt available you get to be mediocure til it is. PvP target swapping will be bottlenecked by judgment debuff to have a mastery whatsoever as you get to open-up on one target just to be shit the moment you need to switch to his buddy until judgment is off CD.

Our gap closing is now abysmal, with the most consistant speed boosts we had in Long Arm and Pursuit gone now... And last, as a player who is quite keen on the "lore" feel of a class' play that makes them "feel" like their class from a fantasy perspective..we've lost all but everything that made us actually feel like this magic wielding, crusader warrior, and just might aswell be an arms warrior.

And best yet..we went from 17 spells between attacks, raid utility and mitigation..down to 8. Execution sentence, Exorcism, Hammer of the Righteous, Hammer of Wrath, Emancipation, Blessing of Sac, WoG, Divine Protection...all gone, 9 spells, gone with 2 of them technically still existing, but needing to be talented into to have as part of our toolbox again. If you want to get picky with things it would be 10 with the lose of our Seals system..and even a lose of a quality of life aspect, that being TV's chance on hit to empower our next Divine Storm that it deals additional damage.

All we have left is Wings, LoH, Bubble, CS, Judgment, TV, DS, and a new spell given to us, Blade of Wrath. ..So all of 8 surviveability, "utility" and DPS spells remain. ..Somehow I feel like I'm not even my class/spec anymore, wonder why? Any ideas?

[Dece]

I'm really at a lost of words on what to say about ret and how bad it is. This is so disappointing.

[Silvus]

I realy wanna like it!!! But I dont! ������ Gonna keep trying tho!
Reading the story of the Ashbringer again and again, all hyped to play.. Untill I actualy am playing...
/reloadretribution

[rubenmsalles]

Phalanx post says that Ret must counter Mage/Priest/Rogue with vengance aura and blessing of sac
At least, blizz think that. I wish to see any kind of simulations of 3s arena with those results that can justify their kind of thinking
and, we have blue post!!! alarm everyone!!

[Varaben]

I see no reason to play ret in Legion, despite the fact that I've played ret since 2008. I dislike that they are taking out our ranged capabilities (not completely, not you can see where it's headed); I liked being a "medium range" melee. I don't really like the collosus smash judgment, though I do think it's a nice change of pace.

I just have a lot more fun as sub rogue right now; nothing in ret has any draw.

[Lucetia]

Phalanx post says that Ret must counter Mage/Priest/Rogue with vengance aura and blessing of sac
At least, blizz think that.

So they said to counter with Vengeance Aura and Blessing of Sacrifice?

Now my next question is, where is this mythical Vengeance Aura? I thought maybe I just missed it. Went through all talents, nope. Checked spellbook, nope. Checked artifact, nope. Am I missing something?

[Morally Grey Storm]

So they said to counter with Vengeance Aura and Blessing of Sacrifice?

Now my next question is, where is this mythical Vengeance Aura? I thought maybe I just missed it. Went through all talents, nope. Checked spellbook, nope. Checked artifact, nope. Am I missing something?

it's Blessing of Sanctuary, as BoSac is removed from Ret toolkit.
Vengeance Aura is a PvP tree talent.
And sucky at that.

[Lucetia]

it's Blessing of Sanctuary, as BoSac is removed from Ret toolkit.
Vengeance Aura is a PvP tree talent.
And sucky at that.

Ah, that explains it. I didn't even mess with the PvP tree because I'd rather focus on that on live than beta.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Ah, that explains it. I didn't even mess with the PvP tree because I'd rather focus on that on live than beta.

by a complete coincidence BoSanctuary and Vengeance Aura also share a PvP tree tier, so it's former or latter

[Deleted]

All they'd have to do to make Ret 100% more fun to play IMO is adding the WoD version of Final Verdict (that gives a buff to the next Divine Storm) instead of the current one that just buffs TV damage on Tier 15, and adding Empowered Divine Storm as one of the Tier 60 options (we don't really need two different types of buffs to Blade of Justice, do we? Roll them into one).

I'd pick those two talents (plus Fires of Justice) without ever looking back, and Ret would be fun to play again.

So, i know we all really want to like it. Your narrative of bringing back things that are fun is logical, but there is a problem that will never go away and will keep undermining the spec until one of them gets removed. That is the cooldown based Holy power mechanic and the judgement window. They will never work together because one asks you to spend HP fast so you can continue to build it up, and the other asks you to pool your HP for judgement. These will always counter each other, wich makes the design contradictory. There is no clear objective. Because they are contrary, the best way to play the spec will always be to ignore one and maximise the other.

This contradiction is what kills Ret for me in Legion. I never feel like i'm doing something cool. I feel constantly frustrated with cooldowns clashing and delaying other cooldowns. Judgement itself is a big problem because it uses a global cooldown and generates no HP.

I don't know. I am sure Blizz is trying to find a middle point where this can work, but i'm not sure that even can exist.

[Volitar]

Nope but I haven't liked Ret in a long time. Not sure why they changed the mastery to be a boring version of CS that only works on 2 (3) spells.


BC/Wotlk ret forever!

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

Glad to see so many people jumped on my comment that Judgment is now a C-Smash for ret's play and that the comparison stuck so well.

[wonderlust]

So, i know we all really want to like it. Your narrative of bringing back things that are fun is logical, but there is a problem that will never go away and will keep undermining the spec until one of them gets removed. That is the cooldown based Holy power mechanic and the judgement window. They will never work together because one asks you to spend HP fast so you can continue to build it up, and the other asks you to pool your HP for judgement. These will always counter each other, wich makes the design contradictory. There is no clear objective. Because they are contrary, the best way to play the spec will always be to ignore one and maximise the other.

This contradiction is what kills Ret for me in Legion. I never feel like i'm doing something cool. I feel constantly frustrated with cooldowns clashing and delaying other cooldowns. Judgement itself is a big problem because it uses a global cooldown and generates no HP.

I don't know. I am sure Blizz is trying to find a middle point where this can work, but i'm not sure that even can exist.

That makes a lot of sense. The Judgment window is what's killing the spec.

It's probably no coincidence that I loved Ret in WoD and dislike it in Legion, while on my Warrior, I love Fury and dislike Arms.

[Exedore]

With the reduced cooldown (8s) on Blade of Justice (and its alternatives from talents), building and using holy power seems much smoother. It also coincides a lot nicer with Judgment.

The problems I still see (on PTR) are:
- Templar's Verdict is currently no-contest for your Holy Power consumer. Could just be a lack of tuning on Execution Sentence and Justicar's Vengeance.
- In-combat group support feels extremely lacking and Flash of Light heals for a piddly amount.
- Mobility is pretty bad. Hoping the Law and Order PvP talent makes this less of an issue.

[Morally Grey Storm]

The problems I still see (on PTR) are:
- Templar's Verdict is currently no-contest for your Holy Power consumer. Could just be a lack of tuning on Execution Sentence and Justicar's Vengeance.

could also be a lack of finishers.
or lack of design.
or both.

- In-combat group support feels extremely lacking and Flash of Light heals for a piddly amount.

because there is no "support" in "Retribution".
Youre going to learn to play whack-a-lot and love it.

- Mobility is pretty bad. Hoping the Law and Order PvP talent makes this less of an issue.

Mobility is not bad.
It's nonexistant.
Negative, rather.

L&O doesn't do feth all regarding it.

[OrcsRLame]

Not gonna lie, kind of hope haste ends up being our best stat by far, so we can just stack haste to increase judgment uptime. I realize it's really unlikely, but I'd definitely prefer to play with 50% haste all the time.

[marinos]

Not gonna lie, kind of hope haste ends up being our best stat by far, so we can just stack haste to increase judgment uptime. I realize it's really unlikely, but I'd definitely prefer to play with 50% haste all the time.

Why? Even around 10-13%% haste your Judgement downtime is minimal.