Couple who treated ill son with maple syrup — not medicine — blame ambulance workers

[Deleted]

one possible explanation

That, or people living in their own fantasy world thinking 'God' will fix it. Is that narcisissm?

[Deleted]

homeopathy has its place. For treating any serious illness of course not. If you have an upset stomach eat ginger to settle it instead of tums, if you're not a big caffeine person it can be used to treat mild headaches. Sore or strep throat gargle salt water. Those are all homeopathic remedies.

Nope, that's not homeopathy, you are misinformed. These are just natural remedies which indeed may work. Homeopathy, on the other hand, is a belief that water has memory and that diluting something in it millions of times, past the point of ANY of the molecules being diluted having a chance to even be in the water, gives it "potency". It is, to put it very simply, a modern form of magic for the gullible.

[Deleted]

I still can't understand why people dislike, or plain don't believe in medicine and doctors...

I remember, it was actually a conversation in an English class because it came up for whatever reason, and our teacher was explaining why none of us would be alive in the class without medicine, doctors or treatments etc. In about 3 questions, the class were nearly all 'dead' "How many of you have had to have a major operation, or a parent who's had one?" "How many of you were birthed by Cesarean or result of a difficult birth?" "How many of you have ever had the flu, chicken pox etc". Literally by the end of it, only about 3 people were still alive, excluding the teacher. So out of a class of close to 30, 3 would possibly still be alive, as the rest of us would have surely died, or prevented from being born, purely due to medicine and what we know today.

It really stuck with me how important it was, and I appreciate my teacher for getting that across to me at age 12.

This whole thing, in my opinion, is due to a lack of understanding and education on the importance of REAL medicine. Why they allowed, yes allowed, their own child to die is beyond me, because they thought they could treat their own child with....syrup? *sigh*

[Katchii]

In reply to my question:




This fact does not prove anything of the sort. It does confirm that they don't have zero faith in real medicine. It doesn't prove that they believe their remedies are bullshit. It's quite possible that they believed their medicine was fine, but when faced with a child who is not breathing, you tend to do whatever you think might help.



As a parent myself, I can, to a certain extent, empathise with their account of what happened. First time my kids (we have twins) had a high temperature both my wife and I got very worried, called the Paed and rushed across there immediately. The doctor looked at them, told us to relax, prescribed some paracetamol and 12 hours later the kids were already on the mend. Over the next 9 years our kids have had many minor illnesses, as all kids do, involving many high temperatures and runny noses, etc. No parent can go running off to the doctor for every little sniffle. The best you can do is hope that when something actually serious hits them, that you recognise it early enough to go to the doctor before any serious consequences occur. Most of the time this works out. But every now and again a parent will mistake a very serious ailment for something less serious and as a result not take action that, in hindsight, should have been taken.

That being said, in this case, the child was sick for 2 weeks. I agree that a rational parent would have taken their child to a doctor after a day or two of the child not getting better. But I think it is safe to say that these parents are not that rational. They are clearly delusional, and based on what I have read about this case, narcissistic personality disordered. But that does not mean they are evil



Blatant disregard for common knowledge and spouting off and living under conspiracy theories can be ascribed to many things: Ignorance, stupidity, delusions of grandeur, a narcissistic personality disorder (among others).
Secondly, most fanatics who try to poison the minds of people with their crazy ideas often do so out of genuine care for others' wellbeing and genuinely believe the shit they are espousing. The fact that they are crazy and often end up endangering those they are trying to help is ironic, but not evil.

Evil would be someone knowingly lying in order to derive some benefit. For example a sociopath would happily sell maple syrup with promises of it's medicinal virtue to naive idiots and then feel nothing for the fact that it is endangering lives. But a sociopath wouldn't knowingly give their own child a medicine they know is a sham. A sociopath would pretend that they are giving their child the maple syrup while actually making sure the child is getting (what they believe to be) the best medical attention possible, and then give all the credit to the maple syrup.

Sorry, but the only rational explanation for this tragedy is that the parents are idiots. They genuinely believed they were doing the best they could for their child and when they try to convince others to do the same, it's borne of the same delusional beliefs.

It makes them idiots
It makes them dangerous
It makes them a menace society
But it does not make them evil.

Look, I get what you're saying, and I realise I am probably arguing semantics here, but I think it's a pertinent distinction because understanding human behaviour isn't nearly as simple as "Person X is evil, Person Y is good". The reason we like to abstract our arguments down to this level is because then we can feel safe. The logic being that if we eliminate evil people from the world, then we'll be safe (and deep down we all believe that we'll know an evil person when we see them). Alternatively, if we are "good" (ie not evil) then our kids won't die from this sort of thing. And I think that is likely the trap that these idiots fell into. They aren't evil, so they believed their actions would have a good outcome.



Why would you assume that? All the evidence points to the fact that these are nutcases. They are not rational human beings. You cannot assume that they know or understand anything that a regular person would take for granted.

Honestly, I think, based on all accounts, that they genuinely believed that their alternative medicine was superior. I think they had (and probably still have) delusions of grandeur regarding their competence in dealing with medical matters. Of course I think they're idiots and way too arrogant for their (or their children's) own good and as such their other children are probably safer not being under their care. But that doesn't make them evil.

I'll agree to disagree with you on the terminology and "the feels" of this one. I think we both agree the parents were nutjobs.

But to explain where I'm coming from, the bolded is exactly why I think they are "evil." I used quotation marks because I don't subscribe to the use of the term (most people are just doing what they feel is best for themselves or whatever cause they believe, very few people are truly evil for the sake of being evil), but it conveys the basic idea. They live in this world, are exposed to the same information about the things in this modern world as any other normal person, such as medicine. The fact that they still willingly and purposefully disregard this information in favor of their own expertise (which by all accounts is snake oil and bullshit) means they suffer from such a level of delusion and subscribe to this ignorance WILLINGLY, as to put themselves and their family at risk and ended up causing the death of their son. Their purposeful ignorance resulted in the death of their child.

Call that whatever you want to call it, but whatever term you use, I find that abhorrent.

[Alvito]

Did the ambulance not have a good stock of syrup? It is good to ask questions and wonder if things are really the way the masses think they are. Then you have nutbags like this that take it way too far and end up killing their own kid.

[Deleted]

I still can't understand why people dislike, or plain don't believe in medicine and doctors...

I can have a go at explaining this, in part, when it relates to people with an inflated appreciation of their own intelligence that often accompanies other narcissistic traits (I'm not commenting on whether or not these parents would fit the diagnostic criteria for such a disorder) and why they are often distrustful of science.

It is common with such people that they will only accept knowledge that can be very quickly gained, processed, and understood. So “honey relieves my sore throat” is very palatable to them.

Understanding a treatment process such as vaccination or appropriate use of antibiotics, and consequently establishing a trust in their benefits, requires extended reading across a number of fields (microbiology, epidemiology, etc.) in order to validly accept that it is an overwhelming benefit based upon your own reasoning, rather than trust in any one, or collection of, specialists.

Because that can't be gleaned from 20 minutes with google they become frustrated and refuse to accept, and instead favour what they can accept on only surface detail. It is easier to be distrustful than admit something might be hard or impossible for them to comprehend in a short time frame.

I'd suggest this might be due to the fact that processing something complex often has a 3 steps forward, 2 steps back nature to it. Someone who studies something complex really well often identifies their own misconceptions in order to overcome conceptual hurdles. Upon self correcting themselves or identifying a nuance they had not on first pass appreciated they enable themselves to progress. Even without making errors, multiple passes at something is often required to truly “get” something. That slapping yourself in the head is extremely intolerable to people with certain traits. They simply cannot deal with the self criticism involved.

(There is some research that might show that people who exhibit such traits most often fail to accept that understanding,competence and ability are cumulative qualities for themselves and others. So to them, if it isn't instantly appreciable it is somehow necessarily flawed. There's been a few studies that seem to indicate that this applies across the board when testing people from a variety of IQ ranges. They appear to make characteristic errors in multistep questions when other testing has indicated they might be considered overconfident or reckless by normalized standards )

The esteem issues they have will not allow them to defer to specialists with specialised education and experience. Nobody could possibly know more than them!

So the honey and herbs work, the other stuff can't because they can't see it.

Because of the egocentric nature of their world outlook they have a real problem accepting that the efficacy of many interventions might not be as simple as “Treatment A” definitely results in “Outcome B”. While there are many treatments such as polio vaccination having a near 100% positive result for everyone, the fact that “some stuff “might be a bit more hit and miss in terms of efficacy but show a net benefit across all practice causes them to throw the baby out with the bathwater as their self esteem somehow stops them being able to accept that statistics and probability might have a part in what happens to them. My opinion is they feel too special for anything to be left to what they see as “chance”. Their reluctance to work through anything complex and understand why a treatment might be indicated yet not guaranteed would involve them understanding measures such as NNT. Again this would take effort. They fixate on all the possible negatives rather than something being their best option, in all probability. In its extreme cases the knowledge of “stuff that doesn't work all the time” leads them to discredit stuff that demonstrably (if you put the effort into being able to follow the proof) works nearly all the time.

To compound this some people are genuinely as dumb as a box of rocks. And stupid often doesn't recognise itself; it never does when the person is self aggrandising. That aside, someone can by most measures be fairly bright but totally incapable of accepting specialist advice.

This is a really rushed description of my take on it. It might read like I am pathologising anti-intellectualism. It's not really that, more an explanation of why some people can't be told anything or learn certain things and yet remain convinced that the problem is other people. I also believe a healthy measure of distrust is a good thing. It keeps everyone honest.

tl;dr some people probably weren't hugged enough /s

[Deleted]

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snip /s

Wow, thanks for the massive reply xD and to be fair, honey has partial healing qualities, it's an amazing natural antibacterial. It's why bees don't get colds....(partial joke, partial truth!)

But I do have to agree with you on the whole. Has anyone ever had their mums do the thing to you as a kid where when you were ill, she says she'd make you feel better by rubbing an egg on you, she does so, cracks it open and the egg is all weird? Makes you think 'wow my illness went into the egg! I will be better soon!' but apparently they continue to think this is true throughout their life xD

Similar thing to me; wow this made me feel better, that means it cures me!

When I'm feeling sickly, I drink a coca cola and eat plain salted crisps. I wouldn't go round saying how it cures chicken pox or helps your child against polio. But my conclusion can be because I am ill, I need sucrose and sodium and I genuinely start to feel better after a few minutes of having some. For that particular ill

[medievalman1]

- - - Updated - - -


Wow, thanks for the massive reply xD and to be fair, honey has partial healing qualities, it's an amazing natural antibacterial. It's why bees don't get colds....(partial joke, partial truth!)

snip

the common cold isn't caused by bacteria.

[Grym]

I was going to say that is why parents should require licence to breed.

However in this case, the problem took care of itself.

[Fincayra]

Here's the thing.

There is a time and a place for homeopathic / herbal remedies. Case in point:

My mother suffered from terrible seasonal hay fever. She went to doctors, got shots, tried various allergy medications - nothing worked. After a bit of research, she decided to try an herbal remedy as a last ditch effort. She drank 4 cups of stinging nettle tea with a tablespoon of Swedish Bitters a day for nearly an entire year. To this day, she has not had a single problem with allergies.

Now, the difference here is that A) the ailment she was attempting to cure was not life threatening, and B) traditional medicine was not working for her. Please, please, please vaccinate your children. Please, please, please do provide appropriate medical care when needed. When all else has failed or if what you're attempting to treat is not life threatening, by all means give homeopathic medicine a try.

I think you should read a little on homeopathic medicine. It's the same as giving a sick person tap water and telling them it's a life saving drug.

Anyway, throw the book at these parents. The right to be stupid doesn't apply when you put others in danger because of it.

[Belize]

As a Canadian, I am very confused as to why Maple Syrup did not cure the kid's illness.

[neocount]

I think you should read a little on homeopathic medicine. It's the same as giving a sick person tap water and telling them it's a life saving drug.

::shrugs::

/10chars

[Twix]

Dad got 4 months of jail lol what a slap on the wrist

[Dontrike]

homeopathy has its place. For treating any serious illness of course not. If you have an upset stomach eat ginger to settle it instead of tums, if you're not a big caffeine person it can be used to treat mild headaches. Sore or strep throat gargle salt water. Those are all homeopathic remedies.

These people are obviously stupid and there is a reason medicine exists, if your appendix has burst go to the hospital, if you are a little stuffy from the flu put some eucalyptus in a humidifier

The example you listed isn't homepathy, that's herbal. Herbal supplements and treatments can and do work and have worked in the past for various things, but homeopathy is literally like trying to sell Coka a Cola back a hundred years ago to cure everything from dandruff to impotence, from baldness to cancer. Homeopathy is a huge con and has no place in the world of medicine.

[TirielWoW]

Stupid, ignorant, clueless, sure. But evil? I think not. Evil requires either a malice or callousness simply not present here.

“Only ignorance! only ignorance! how can you talk about only ignorance? Don't you know that it is the worst thing in the world, next to wickedness? -- and which does the most mischief heaven only knows. If people can say, `Oh! I did not know, I did not mean any harm,' they think it is all right.”

[endlesswaltz]

Dad got 4 months of jail lol what a slap on the wrist

hopefully there's a lifetime of remorse ahead of them, considering these hippies though, maybe not

[TirielWoW]

hopefully there's a lifetime of remorse ahead of them, considering these hippies though, maybe not

Don't see how remorse is possible when they won't even admit they made any mistakes.

[Fincayra]

::shrugs::

/10chars

Three main logarithmic potency scales are in regular use in homeopathy. Hahnemann created the "centesimal" or "C scale", diluting a substance by a factor of 100 at each stage. The centesimal scale was favored by Hahnemann for most of his life.

A 2C dilution requires a substance to be diluted to one part in 100, and then some of that diluted solution diluted by a further factor of 100.

This works out to one part of the original substance in 10,000 parts of the solution. A 6C dilution repeats this process six times, ending up with the original substance diluted by a factor of 100−6=10−12 (one part in one trillion or 1/1,000,000,000,000). Higher dilutions follow the same pattern.

That's about the same as having a drop of the original cure ingredient in a swimming pool full of water. Not to mention the originator of homeopathy advocated 30C dilution and even higher than that.

The idea is that water will mirror whatever is near it, so it's basically an alchemy, and it's all horseshit pseudoscience. I can completely understand some natural cures being usable for people that don't respond to modern medicine, but homeopathy is several degrees further along the insanity border. All it amounts to is the placebo effect anyway. You're telling someone they are receiving a cure, and they believe it, and their body responds to the positive thoughts. Homeopathy itself is no cure. The placebo effect itself is the cure. You're just slapping an expensive label and price on tap water.

[Faenskap]

My dad was, due to our neighbour lady, into homeopathic medicine. So guess what medication I got when I had ear infections

When reading this case, I'm happy it was just ear infections though, nothing more severe.

Then she and later him switched to Herbalife. Oh god.

[Fencers]

People are too stupid to be left totally to their own devices, I believe.