20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[kary]

Lol.
I thought "lack of world content" was why they were losing subs in wod?

I wish you people would make up your mind and stop shifting the goalpost the second you feel triggered.

What do you want them to do? Pander to everyone? 20man is a great compromise... if the social guilds were as social as they claim to be.

Oh, wait, no. Or are the devs supposed to just do everything you want? Jeez.

Also, lol at 2012 article. Super relevant information, bro.

And, 10 man raiding isn't dead. 10 man as premier progression is dead. You can still raid as a 10 man group if you so please.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Lol.
I thought "lack of world content" was why they were losing subs in wod?

I wish you people would make up your mind and stop shifting the goalpost the second you feel triggered.

What do you want them to do? Pander to everyone? 20man is a great compromise... if the social guilds were as social as they claim to be.

Oh, wait, no. Or are the devs supposed to just do everything you want? Jeez.

Also, lol at 2012 article. Super relevant information, bro.

And, 10 man raiding isn't dead. 10 man as premier progression is dead. You can still raid as a 10 man group if you so please.

They're losing subscribers for multiple reasons. I stopped playing wow because of the arrogance of warlords development team. The lack of content just took warlords off my radar though.

[kary]

They're losing subscribers for multiple reasons. I stopped playing wow because of the arrogance of warlords development team. The lack of content just took warlords off my radar though.

I'd be pretty arrogant towards toxic crybabies.
Anyway, you quit, cool. Move on. Most people don't seem to want to.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

I'd be pretty arrogant towards toxic crybabies.
Anyway, you quit, cool. Move on. Most people don't seem to want to.

I have, I play league of legends and hearthstone now just saying people quit for multiple reasons.

[Jaylock]

They're losing subscribers for multiple reasons. I stopped playing wow because of the arrogance of warlords development team. The lack of content just took warlords off my radar though.

"Arrogance of warlord development team" Lol what a cop out excuse for not playing the game.. I'm glad you arent. We need less entitled players in my game, and I'm looking forward to Legion

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

"Arrogance of warlord development team" Lol what a cop out excuse for not playing the game.. I'm glad you arent. We need less entitled players in my game, and I'm looking forward to Legion

It's not that expansion was garbage all you have to do is look at the subscriber loses. I was right and ended up saving both my money and time. I might comeback for legion but I knew warlords was gonna be a shit show and I wasn't wrong.

[Trapped]

I sincerely miss being in a 10 man raid team. Finding 20 people of a similar skill level, with similar goals, and who get along is significantly harder than finding 10. It's even worse if you aren't on a high pop server. I main dps, but I also like healing. 20+ man healing however has always felt really boring to me. I feel like my performance matters much less.

100% exactly. SO much easier to get carried in 20-man because of simple math. Each person contributes only 5% to a kill rather than 10% in a 10-man. I honestly feel the "hardcore" community only does Mythic because it's the hardest content in the game and has the better gear.

Most Mythic guilds that are still progressing right now are only able to do so due to item level inflation, and just waiting for enough good players to carry the bads (yes, there are outright BADS in Mythic raiding right now).

- - - Updated - - -

Success.

Small guilds should just merge if they want to do mythic.
And for the love of god remove normal mode (and LFR)...

Why do people keep saying that small guilds should just merge? You act like thats such an easy fix that you can't understand why people don't do it, lol. Different guilds have different ideals and philosophies, and most mergers never work out.

[kary]

100% exactly. SO much easier to get carried in 20-man because of simple math. Each person contributes only 4% to a kill rather than 10% in a 10-man. I honestly feel the "hardcore" community only does Mythic because it's the hardest content in the game and has the better gear.

Most Mythic guilds that are still progressing right now are only able to do so due to item level inflation, and just waiting for enough good players to carry the bads (yes, there are outright BADS in Mythic raiding right now).

- - - Updated - - -



Why do people keep saying that small guilds should just merge? You act like thats such an easy fix that you can't understand why people don't do it, lol. Different guilds have different ideals and philosophies, and most mergers never work out.

The mythic guilds that are progressing right now are no different to the 10 man heroic groups that were on paragons a month before prepatch.
Most of the "10 man competitive progression" players have already completed all content in mythic by now.

The people who are complaining are the beer league players who used to scrape by in the year + between expansions, let's be honest.

The cutting edge players have already adapted.

[Bytch]

I dont like the idea of normal/heroic being flex and a lot of people thinking that you need 30 people in a raid to down a boss. That's some damn shameful planning and/or thought process on the raid lead's IQ level. Really hate that get into a group and RL wants to keep adding people and keep wiping to same people fucking shit up. Give normal/heroic the flex to go up to 20. Stop the madness of having 30 people in a raid. I prefer and like the 20m mythic style.

[Relapses]

100% exactly. SO much easier to get carried in 20-man because of simple math. Each person contributes only 4% to a kill rather than 10% in a 10-man. I honestly feel the "hardcore" community only does Mythic because it's the hardest content in the game and has the better gear.

This is flat out bullshit math. The fact of the matter is 10M Heroic encounters were often tuned to be far more forgiving than their 25M counterparts because the lack of players meant that you couldn't always count on certain important raid buffs being present. (Garrosh 10H possibly being an exception to this rule but given that the first kill was solo healed honestly shows just how stupidly overtuned the encounter was... and to a greater extent, how silly it was to expect Blizzard to tune two versions of the same encounter fairly.) I strongly dislike people in favor of 10M Heroic using this farcical logic to support a completely untrue conclusion.

Hell, it's not even that 10 or 25 was easier or more difficult, it's that players think that the number of players in a raid actually fucking matters when the encounter is tuned properly. Quite frankly, it's infinitely more easy for them to achieve proper balance in a single fixed raid size than it is to constantly have to design encounters two times to appease separate factions of raiders which are often inexorably at odds with one another.

[kary]

This is flat out bullshit math. The fact of the matter is 10M Heroic encounters were often tuned to be far more forgiving than their 25M counterparts because the lack of players meant that you couldn't always count on certain important raid buffs being present. (Garrosh 10H possibly being an exception to this rule but given that the first kill was solo healed honestly shows just how stupidly overtuned the encounter was... and to a greater extent, how silly it was to expect Blizzard to tune two versions of the same encounter fairly.) I strongly dislike people in favor of 10M Heroic using this farcical logic to support a flat out untrue conclusion.

Hell, it's not even that 10 or 25 was easier or more difficult, it's that players think that the number of players in a raid actually fucking matters when the encounter is tuned properly. Quite frankly, it's infinitely more easy for them to achieve proper balance in a single fixed raid size than it is to constantly have to design encounters two times to appease two separate factions of raiders.

inb4 more emotion based whining.

[Jaylock]

It's not that expansion was garbage all you have to do is look at the subscriber loses. I was right and ended up saving both my money and time. I might comeback for legion but I knew warlords was gonna be a shit show and I wasn't wrong.

Your highly subjective opinion lol.

[Relapses]

inb4 more emotion based whining.

...this thread repeats itself every 10 or so pages. It's kind of like the old Nost megathread though that one isn't nearly as active now that its ship has officially sailed into the sunset.

[brunnor]

No, I'm dealing in reality. You're the one who is remembering things wrong because of your bias. See

Oh man, if www.engadget.com says so, we better believe it! On topic though, as I've said in many many many threads before, participation doesn't equal success. Just like non-participation doesn't equal failure. If participation was the only requisite for success, they would never have made anything after level 2. Yes, as the bar gets higher and higher, the numbers completing things gets lower and lower. That isn't a sign that the bar should be lowered more, just that people should try harder to reach the bar. Does that always happen? Of course not, but that doesn't mean it should change.

[Bonezerker]

I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind the assertion that only a very small minority of the playerbase has the desire to raid at the top level, but restricting Mythic to 20 players is the reason for the sub loss.

[Deleted]

The community wasn't overwhelmingly showing anything. The community was divided 25 vs 10. You thinking that 10's was an overwhelming majority shows your bias.

Community massively preferred smaller raid sizes. Always did, always will.

The devs always preferred larger raid sizes, too. 25's were the premier size since TBC. You had 2 expansions of 10mans compared to 4 of 25's.

They did. The playerbase ignored them because they didn't want to do larger raids.

You can still raid and get tier with 10 or how much ever you want.

You can't. The raids are designed with at least 15 in mind.

They have an idea for their premier size, their halo content. It just happened to be 20, which, was easier to recruit for than 25.

Yep. Blizzard doesn't care what their players want.

Anyway, I'll say it over and over. People had time to adapt. If you chose not to, that's noone's fault but your own.

Oh, and if the point is to be social, it's way better to unite 2 houses rather than find 5 randoms

It is not social to be forced to invite 5-10 people you do not know after 4 years of raiding with the same people.

[Trapped]

The mythic guilds that are progressing right now are no different to the 10 man heroic groups that were on paragons a month before prepatch.
Most of the "10 man competitive progression" players have already completed all content in mythic by now.

The people who are complaining are the beer league players who used to scrape by in the year + between expansions, let's be honest.

The cutting edge players have already adapted.

So now Mythic is for cutting edge players, not just really really good ones? Sorry, read the damn forums. Read about how so many people lost their guilds and their friends when 20-man Mythic was announced/launched. There used to be a TON of good players in 10-man heroic guilds, don't tell me that 10-man guilds were immediately dubbed as casual.

- - - Updated - - -

This is flat out bullshit math. The fact of the matter is 10M Heroic encounters were often tuned to be far more forgiving than their 25M counterparts because the lack of players meant that you couldn't always count on certain important raid buffs being present. (Garrosh 10H possibly being an exception to this rule but given that the first kill was solo healed honestly shows just how stupidly overtuned the encounter was... and to a greater extent, how silly it was to expect Blizzard to tune two versions of the same encounter fairly.) I strongly dislike people in favor of 10M Heroic using this farcical logic to support a completely untrue conclusion.

Hell, it's not even that 10 or 25 was easier or more difficult, it's that players think that the number of players in a raid actually fucking matters when the encounter is tuned properly. Quite frankly, it's infinitely more easy for them to achieve proper balance in a single fixed raid size than it is to constantly have to design encounters two times to appease separate factions of raiders which are often inexorably at odds with one another.

How is my math wrong? If you're in a 20-man raid, you're 5% of the raid. If you're in a 10-man, you're 10% of the raid. More wiggle room for carries. Do you honestly think that the bottom 5 players in a Mythic raid team are as good as the top 5 players? Hell no they are not.

[kary]

Community massively preferred smaller raid sizes. Always did, always will.


They did. The playerbase ignored them because they didn't want to do larger raids.



You can't. The raids are designed with at least 15 in mind.


Yep. Blizzard doesn't care what their players want.


It is not social to be forced to invite 5-10 people you do not know after 4 years of raiding with the same people.

The community was always split. There were tons of people who hated 10 mans and would exclusively raid 25.

You raided how much this expansion? You can do everything up to and including heroic archimonde in a 10 man group. Flex scaling starts with 10 being the absolute minimum number it's scaled around

Blizzard does care about what players want. That's why they allowed tier to be available from 10 man in cata onward. They are just in the opinion that the hardest difficulty should be set at one level and not have to be altered every 2 weeks because some guild that didn't have a certain class couldn't perform on a certain fight

What is social, really? I can argue that not wanting to recruit people is inherently anti-social. Are you so selfish that you don't want to open the doors to more people?

- - - Updated - - -

So now Mythic is for cutting edge players, not just really really good ones? Sorry, read the damn forums. Read about how so many people lost their guilds and their friends when 20-man Mythic was announced/launched. There used to be a TON of good players in 10-man heroic guilds, don't tell me that 10-man guilds were immediately dubbed as casual.

- - - Updated - - -



How is my math wrong? If you're in a 20-man raid, you're 5% of the raid. If you're in a 10-man, you're 10% of the raid. More wiggle room for carries. Do you honestly think that the bottom 5 players in a Mythic raid team are as good as the top 5 players? Hell no they are not.

There used to be a lot of decent players. The decent ones that had a brain adapted, and the ones that were entitled crybabies took to the forums.
Lol @ lose your guild and friends. If 10 man makes you "lose your friends" they weren't really your friends, just random people you raided with. Or is your wow friendship so fragile that not having your way 100% of the time shatters it/them?

There were cutting edge 10 man guilds, you know. The ones that actually progressed very quickly. These people adapted and formed bigger guilds with other likeminded progression oriented individuals. Your kind, on the other hand, the whiny kind, instead complained and did nothing and watched your guilds blow up right in your hands. Trade chat zerg guilds, friend and family guilds; the ones that only see end bosses in "content droughts" are the ones that suffered. Because of the general unwillingness to adapt. It's tragic, really. But you know, we'll instead just blame blizzard instead for our shortcomings and anti-social tendencies.

[Deja Thoris]

What is social, really? I can argue that not wanting to recruit people is inherently anti-social. Are you so selfish that you don't want to open the doors to more people?

Social is different things to different people. I have more of a connection with 3/4 friends in RL than a party of 25 people. Same on the interwebs. 10 people is "social" enough for me. 7000 facebook friends isn't. It's more like a collection or a zoo.

[kary]

Social is different things to different people. I have more of a connection with 3/4 friends in RL than a party of 25 people. Same on the interwebs. 10 people is "social" enough for me. 7000 facebook friends isn't. It's more like a collection or a zoo.

In the comparison of 10 vs 20, bringing up 7k is pure hyperbole but okay.

If you don't want to do that, sure. There's no reason why not being able to do the highest difficulty should kill a guild. If you are so connected, wouldn't being able to do your 10 man progression through heroic be something? I can understand that at long periods of clearing heroic some people would want to move on, but people's guilds were destroyed before highmaul was even released. People had no interest in even social raiding as a 10 or whatever.

And for what it's worth, raiding is even more social before mythic, since you can always carry a dark legacy donald with you and not shatter your hallowed 10 man group. Or maybe that's why groups fell apart, because they'd have no reason not to invite weaker members. Who knows?