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  1. #1221
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    The community was always split.
    Sure, there was a tiny minority woul wanted to to do 25 mans.
    There were tons of people who hated 10 mans and would exclusively raid 25.
    Dwarfed by the people who didn't want to, of course.
    You raided how much this expansion? You can do everything up to and including heroic archimonde in a 10 man group. Flex scaling starts with 10 being the absolute minimum number it's scaled around
    I stopped at highmaul because it wasn't doable even on normal with 10 men.
    Blizzard does care about what players want.
    Then why are they still making raids? No one cares.

  2. #1222
    I mean I kind of forgot mythic was only 20 instead of 25. I kind of like 25 better because it ment you usually had an extra healer. 2 and 3 healing stuff still feels weird to me.
    Hi Sephurik

  3. #1223
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Sure, there was a tiny minority woul wanted to to do 25 mans.


    Dwarfed by the people who didn't want to, of course.


    I stopped at highmaul because it wasn't dosbale even on normal with 10 men.
    Blizzard does care about what players want.
    Then why are they still making raids? No one cares.
    People care.
    Devs care.
    Devs want to.
    So they do.

    Highmaul was easily doable with 10 men. You were just bad. Just means that mythic wouldn't be for you anyway, so why are you even arguing?

  4. #1224
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    People care.
    Devs care.
    No evidence for that.

    Highmaul was easily doable with 10 men. You were just bad. Just means that mythic wouldn't be for you anyway, so why are you even arguing?
    No, highmaul was impossible with ten men at release, you couldn't get past butcher.

    I raided ten man F+F since LK. Wod killed 10 man and small group raiding and so I quit.

  5. #1225
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No evidence for that.


    No, highmaul was impossible with ten men at release, you couldn't get past butcher.

    I raided ten man F+F since LK. Wod killed 10 man and small group raiding and so I quit.
    No evidence in your completely biased point of view, sure.
    It was impossible if you had no idea how to gear, underestimated the boss, and didn't know the strategy, I'll agree. So basically it was impossible without preparation. Which is about right. So yeah, if you were bad and couldn't deal with wipes you'd get anvildicked on butcher.

  6. #1226
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    No evidence in your completely biased point of view, sure.
    What bias? I loved wow. I played ten man raiding wow for 5 years. I didn't quit because it was super amazing and just the same as the game I had loved.
    It was impossible if you had no idea how to gear, underestimated the boss, and didn't know the strategy, I'll agree.
    No, it was impossible because you needed at least 13 to soak until they retuned it.
    So basically it was impossible without preparation. Which is about right. So yeah, if you were bad and couldn't deal with wipes you'd get anvildicked on butcher.
    No, it was impossible with 10.

    Even on normal.

    This was utterly devastating for peopel who just wanted to turn up and fuck about, like they had done since ICC. If you think that raiding shouldbe super hardcore that's fine.

    My guild ain't played since then, it's going to have a go at legion in the 5 mans. if blizzard still can't deliver small group content they won't get our money. Well do something else instead,

  7. #1227
    Quote Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
    .
    Most Mythic guilds that are still progressing right now are only able to do so due to item level inflation, and just waiting for enough good players to carry the bads (yes, there are outright BADS in Mythic raiding right now).
    I was under a similar impression but recently I checked the actual numbers for my realm. We have 3 guilds clearing 13M before valor, and 4 clearing it in late november-december, so after valor.
    What surprised me was that after checking their logs (the four november-december guilds), they had the same avg ilvl (739-740) and quite similar number of attempts (130-160) on the last 2 bosses first kills as guilds first killing them in May/Jun.
    Last edited by stevenho; 2016-06-25 at 02:18 AM.

  8. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    What bias? I loved wow. I played ten man raiding wow for 5 years. I didn't quit because it was super amazing and just the same as the game I had loved.


    No, it was impossible because you needed at least 13 to soak until they retuned it.


    No, it was impossible with 10.

    Even on normal.

    This was utterly devastating for peopel who just wanted to turn up and fuck about, like they had done since ICC. If you think that raiding shouldbe super hardcore that's fine.

    My guild ain't played since then, it's going to have a go at legion in the 5 mans. if blizzard still can't deliver small group content they won't get our money. Well do something else instead,
    So you're saying that you were bad, yet again?
    Dude, I know you're bad. You don't have to tell me over and over, I know. If you showed up to dick around on butcher in 630~ ilvl gear you'd get shit on. The guilds that cleared normal and heroic first week actually did things like, used crafted gear, CM gear, world BoE gear.
    It was impossible for people playing at your level; bad players.

  9. #1229
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    So you're saying that you were bad, yet again?
    Sure. It was also inpossible to clear normal with ten men.

    TO make it completely certain I don't give a fuck. I don't post my honest opinions on here because I care what you or anyone else thinks.
    Dude, I know you're bad. You don't have to tell me over and over, I know. If you showed up to dick around on butcher in 630~ ilvl gear you'd get shit on.
    If you showed up in 660 gear with ten men you'd get shit on. it was designed with 13-preferably at least 15 men in mind.

    This meant that every ten man F+F guild died in highmaul.
    The guilds that cleared normal and heroic first week actually did things like, used crafted gear, CM gear, world BoE gear.
    I don't care about that/
    It was impossible for people playing at your level; bad players.
    It was impossible for great [players playing in good ilvl for the time.

    Given it was advertised as doable in 605 ilvl for ten man at blizzcon, its not surprising all the F_F guilds died and not surprising subs fell off a cliff.

    Blizzard once again mistook their playerbase for people who care about raiding peformance.

  10. #1230
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Sure. It was also inpossible to clear normal with ten men.

    TO make it completely certain I don't give a fuck. I don't post my honest opinions on here because I care what you or anyone else thinks.


    If you showed up in 660 gear with ten men you'd get shit on. it was designed with 13-preferably at least 15 men in mind.

    This meant that every ten man F+F guild died in highmaul.


    I don't care about that/


    It was impossible for great [players playing in good ilvl for the time.

    Given it was advertised as doable in 605 ilvl for ten man at blizzcon, its not surprising all the F_F guilds died and not surprising subs fell off a cliff.

    Blizzard once again mistook their playerbase for people who care about raiding peformance.
    I know you don't give a fuck. That's why you're bad.

    10 men F+F guilds always have more than 10 people on the roster. Your fault for being selfish, I guess.

    And, cite your sources. Show me where blizzard said you should be able to do normal HM in 605 gear.

  11. #1231
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    I know you don't give a fuck. That's why you're bad.
    I don;t care about that.
    10 men F+F guilds always have more than 10 people on the roster. Your fault for being selfish, I guess.
    Not when the expac is dogshit they don't. Not my fault blizzard provided content so dire people who had subbed since 2008 stopped playing.

    And, cite your sources. Show me where blizzard said you should be able to do normal HM in 605 gear.
    The blizzcon before wod launched they said the plan was for normal dungeons to lead to normal raids, HC dungeons to lead to HC raids.

    You've got google, have at it.

    If you care ofc, which you probably don't.

    Regardless. Mythic is an utter failure because it made all raids large scale and the player don''tlike them, which lead to the sub drop. Mythic cost blizzard about 400 million dollars, which means it almost as big a failure as new coke. ;p

  12. #1232
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    So you're saying that you were bad, yet again?
    Dude, I know you're bad. You don't have to tell me over and over, I know. If you showed up to dick around on butcher in 630~ ilvl gear you'd get shit on. The guilds that cleared normal and heroic first week actually did things like, used crafted gear, CM gear, world BoE gear.
    It was impossible for people playing at your level; bad players.
    Ah, so your definition of good doesn't have anything at all to do with skill, but looks at gear, money, and time invested.... so by "bad", you mean "not dedicated enough to buy all the world drops and grind out everything the first week the patch is live".

    Reading the rest of your posts through that lens, your position makes far more sense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Regardless. Mythic is an utter failure because it made all raids large scale and the player don''tlike them, which lead to the sub drop. Mythic cost blizzard about 400 million dollars, which means it almost as big a failure as new coke. ;p
    I doubt that. Sub loss happens for many reasons, and given how small a percentage of the player base raids at the Mythic level in the first place, I doubt that the change had a substantial effect on sub count.

    I think 20m was effective in accomplishing what it went for. I never have agreed with the assertion that "more is better" when it comes to group size, so I personally dislike it, but having a single raid format is much better for rigorous balance. (And let's be honest, there's no way Blizzard would risk pissing off the large group raiders... if you think the whining from the 10m people is bad now, it would have been 100 times worse if it had gone the other direction).

    It would have been even better to have both formats but choose one to be the "balanced", not caring if the other is easier or harder... but that would require playing with ilvls, say keeping the smaller format a tier of items behind, and given the Flex format I don't think that would work anymore.

  13. #1233
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Ah, so your definition of good doesn't have anything at all to do with skill, but looks at gear, money, and time invested.... so by "bad", you mean "not dedicated enough to buy all the world drops and grind out everything the first week the patch is live".

    Reading the rest of your posts through that lens, your position makes far more sense.
    Output and preparation are both important.
    You can't expect to be a top tier player with one but not the other.
    If you want to leap into any raid at the first week, you need to be both adequately skilled, prepared... and ready to wipe.
    If you wanna waltz into any instance at the start of an expansion without every possible advantage available and get surprised that you wipe, you're straight up delusional.
    Skill can take you so far, but if you're not really that skilled to begin with...

    Remember that even though the world first archi mythic kill was done without legendary ring/ valor upgrades, it also took 472 wipes to do it.
    Last edited by kary; 2016-06-25 at 02:33 AM.

  14. #1234
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    Output and preparation are both important.
    You can't expect to be a top tier player with one but not the other.
    If you want to leap into any raid at the first week, you need to be both adequately skilled, prepared... and ready to wipe.
    If you wanna waltz into any instance at the start of an expansion without every possible advantage available and get surprised that you wipe, you're straight up delusional.
    I never said that preparation isn't important... but being prepared doesn't make you good. And it's much easier to fix preparation than output.

  15. #1235
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    Output and preparation are both important.
    Theres no preparation that can overcome the fact that a ten man guild cannot functionally kill bosses at all.

    Again, you are clueless as to how most people play the game. You must work for blizzard.

  16. #1236
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    I never said that preparation isn't important... but being prepared doesn't make you good. And it's much easier to fix preparation than output.
    Right, but Injin is basically complaining that he couldn't casually waltz into hm and kill a gearcheck boss

    Have you ever found yourself in a group with people from one of those world first guilds? Most cases they'd have inferior gear and still shit on you dps wise. It's amazing. I used to hang with a bunch of Blood Legion people mid Wotlk > mid Cata and the output in the same gear was always so much more than the average player. There's a huge difference between a 90th percentile capable person and a 75th percentile capable person.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Theres no preparation that can overcome the fact that a ten man guild cannot functionally kill bosses at all.

    Again, you are clueless as to how most people play the game. You must work for blizzard.
    But people did kill butcher normal on 10 man on the first week
    Better players than you, I'm sure of it.
    Last edited by kary; 2016-06-25 at 02:44 AM.

  17. #1237
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    Right, but Injin is basically complaining that he couldn't casually waltz into hm and kill a gearcheck boss
    I'm not complaining at all. I'm explaining why average players who had raided for ten man for 5 years stopped playing when even normal mode was impossible with only ten man.
    But people did kill butcher normal on 10 man on the first week
    No, they didn't.

    Better players than you, I'm sure of it.
    No one did because impossible things do not happen. I am sure better players than me tried it though.

    Regardless, I wasn't talking about the super amazing, good or even above average players, I was talking about your average normal ten man F+F normal guild.

    You keep trying to measure such things by their ability to beat the content. This is wrong. The content is measured by its ability to meet what they want. if the content is doable by them with little effort, its a sucess. If it isn't the content is a complete failure.

    I do hope you understand this.

  18. #1238
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Mythic cost blizzard about 400 million dollars
    Lets see.
    18 months unsubbed*15 bucks=90.
    400M / 90 = 4.4M

    So 4.4M people unsubbed because mythics were "bad".
    I think your numbers are pretty accurate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, they didn't.
    Are you drunk?

  19. #1239
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    Lets see.
    18 months unsubbed*15 bucks=90.
    400M / 90 = 4.4M

    So 4.4M people unsubbed because mythics were "bad".
    I think your numbers are pretty accurate.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Are you drunk?
    The goalpost shifts so much with the reasons for the mass unsub, it makes my head spin.
    Basically it's "whatever I don't like in this thread is the reason everyone unsubbed"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I'm not complaining at all. I'm explaining why average players who had raided for ten man for 5 years stopped playing when even normal mode was impossible with only ten man.


    No, they didn't.



    No one did because impossible things do not happen. I am sure better players than me tried it though.

    Regardless, I wasn't talking about the super amazing, good or even above average players, I was talking about your average normal ten man F+F normal guild.

    You keep trying to measure such things by their ability to beat the content. This is wrong. The content is measured by its ability to meet what they want. if the content is doable by them with little effort, its a sucess. If it isn't the content is a complete failure.

    I do hope you understand this.
    So basically the game is a failure if people who don't prepare or don't play at a high level are unable to beat it without difficulty


    Inb4 complaint in a couple weeks by the people saying "content is too easy, wtf blizz"
    Last edited by kary; 2016-06-25 at 02:55 AM.

  20. #1240
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenho View Post
    Lets see.
    18 months unsubbed*15 bucks=90.
    400M / 90 = 4.4M

    So 4.4M people unsubbed because mythics were "bad".
    I think your numbers are pretty accurate.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Are you drunk?

    Completely shitfaced we just voted leave and I am celebrating.

    However, even drunk I can read. Please learn, then read my posts then respond properly, because the above is fucking bilge.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post


    So basically the game is a failure if people who don't prepare or don't play at a high level are unable to beat it without difficulty
    Yes.

    It is when the content specifically designed for those players idn't a piece of piss because instead it sbeen retooled to make life easier for hardcore players.

    All other modes should have been left alone and left at ten man possibility. Instead they were repurposed so as to maek life easier for mythic raiders. This was a massive, massive fuck up.

    Progression/challenging content has a place. That place is with the people who like it and a billion miles away from normal people.

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