1. #8781
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    There is a third way, the EU do not punish the UK and the EU make sure membership is still an attractive proposition - that is the way the EU will try to go.

    As I have said before, punishing the UK will adversely affect other EU members, notably Ireland (Scotland even more so if they go independent), plus it will be opposed by Ireland, Cyprus and Malta, probably more.

    It would create far more problems than any unification it could hope to achieve.
    EU doesn't have to "punish" them, they'll just be treated like everyone else outside of EU.

    No single market access for UK after Brexit, Wolfgang Schäuble says
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-schauble-says

    France warns Brexit would be irreversible, single market access at stake
    "If the choice is to leave the EU ... that would be irreversible," Hollande said. "No is no, there is no middle ground and we'll have to draw all the consequences."
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0Z81FT

  2. #8782
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkaneer View Post
    Not having your economy controlled by those who do not want to balance their own budget and force you to pay for them to keep spending. Even though you can't vote on their budget proposals or social programs. Do you understand that another country can vote on their own budget to flood their own country with social benefits till their economy collapses, and then force you to pay for it so that your economy does not collapse as well.
    don't suppose you want to link an example of a country that has done that previously?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bollocks View Post
    I can't argue with that, needless to say its stupid to leave for that reason alone.
    people seem to think that the EU was making up stupid directives completely for the sake of it - pretty much all of them might sound stupid if all the information you have is the wording of the directive and not the reason for it existing

    still waiting for Miuku to link some examples of what he considers to be stupid directives, so we can judge for ourselves
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2016-06-25 at 04:57 PM.

  3. #8783
    Warchief Bollocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkaneer View Post
    Not having your economy controlled by those who do not want to balance their own budget and force you to pay for them to keep spending. Even though you can't vote on their budget proposals or social programs. Do you understand that another country can vote on their own budget to flood their own country with social benefits till their economy collapses, and then force you to pay for it so that your economy does not collapse as well.
    But the UK already has control of their economic policies. They aren't giving that money to the NHS as they promised, I assume that money will have to go to pay the subisidies the EU were paying in the UK. And the UK still profited greatly from the EU, so the benefits greatly outweight the "downside".

  4. #8784
    Deleted
    Looks like the British cannot make up their minds. They now want a second vote and have started a petition for one. Claiming they voted for a British exit as a protest vote and did not believe it would go through.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-...endum-36629324

    Hopefully, Juncker and the EU Lawyers find a loophole in Article 50 and can start the process for removing the UK from the EU.

  5. #8785
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Mind to provide one that actually affected you?
    There's a lot of them but as a humorous example I'll use the one that forced a company here to rebrand their entire product line up; the butter directive.

    You see, you can't use the word butter in your product unless it's 100% creme/milk butter. What happens if you have 10% vegetable / 90% milk/creme (to make it easier to spread)? Well, it means you can no longer call it butter - although technically and biologically speaking it is.

    As someone who lives in a rural area, some of the EU water/garbage/nature directives seem completely absurd and purely made up by bureaucrats who have never seen a forest outside a postcard and merely create more bureaucratic work for each other.

  6. #8786
    Deleted
    Catalonian independence is all but inevitable. The ground they stand on is very shaky at the moment and they don't have a clear case nor a definite majority for it.

  7. #8787
    Quote Originally Posted by Miuku View Post
    There's a lot of them but as a humorous example I'll use the one that forced a company here to rebrand their entire product line up; the butter directive.

    You see, you can't use the word butter in your product unless it's 100% creme/milk butter. What happens if you have 10% vegetable / 90% milk/creme (to make it easier to spread)? Well, it means you can no longer call it butter - although technically and biologically speaking it is.

    As someone who lives in a rural area, some of the EU water/garbage/nature directives seem completely absurd and purely made up by bureaucrats who have never seen a forest outside a postcard and merely create more bureaucratic work for each other.
    Well that's wrong to start with.

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...ISERV%3Al21107

    Here's what the UK food standards agency have to say on the matter as well:

    "‘Butter’is the product with a milk fat content of not less than 80% but less than 90%, amaximum water content of 16% and a maximum dry non-fat milk material content(e.g. milk proteins, of 2%)."
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2016-06-25 at 05:02 PM.

  8. #8788
    Quote Originally Posted by Kotutha View Post
    Hopefully, Juncker and the EU Lawyers find a loophole in Article 50 and can start the process for removing the UK from the EU.
    From what I've seen so far there is really not much there in terms of loop hole potential.

  9. #8789
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    Well that's wrong to start with.
    Sorry, it's not. I can link you the article discussing the name change and the reason for it but I doubt you'll be able to translate it via Google Translate.

    https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oivariini

    They had to rename the entire product lineup because of it.

  10. #8790
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Mind to provide one that actually affected you?
    The Greece bail out and economy affected the world. The EU effects world economies, currency values, and trading. It absurd to think these policies don't effect anyone but themselves. Who is paying for the refugees? Look at Sweden's rape % now since allowing the refugees in. Look at all the people murdered in France by refugees, it effected the world. What about those killed in the Geneva terrorist attack. Ya, no one was affected by that?... What a load of shit.
    Last edited by Valkaneer; 2016-06-25 at 05:03 PM.

  11. #8791
    Quote Originally Posted by Doylez View Post
    EU doesn't have to "punish" them, they'll just be treated like everyone else outside of EU.

    No single market access for UK after Brexit, Wolfgang Schäuble says
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-schauble-says

    France warns Brexit would be irreversible, single market access at stake
    "If the choice is to leave the EU ... that would be irreversible," Hollande said. "No is no, there is no middle ground and we'll have to draw all the consequences."
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0Z81FT
    They were both before the referendum in order to try and deter a leave vote. Find me one since the referendum and ill believe you

  12. #8792
    What will happen if UK changes its mind during the 2 year leaving process?
    Will it still have to rejoin, since it seems article 50 does not state that the leaving-phase can be ended in other ways - even if there is a negotiation process.

  13. #8793
    Thing is people in most european countries still remember how it was before EU existed.
    When EU members and the non-members all feel that EU only complicates things due to politics, everyone starts to think it was better before.
    This awkward child "EU" is only a political powerhouse, which struggle so much internally that schizophrenia would be a kind diagnostic.

    Different EU countries do not care the slightest for the other.
    People feel their nationality, and being "european" means nothing. We are not americans.

  14. #8794
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    What will happen if UK changes its mind during the 2 year leaving process?
    Will it still have to rejoin, since it seems article 50 does not state that the leaving-phase can be ended in other ways - even if there is a negotiation process.
    Prob nothing other than Camerons renegotiation would be gone and incredible hostility towards UK

  15. #8795
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkaneer View Post
    The Greece bail out and economy affected the world. The EU effects world economies, currency values, and trading. It absurd to think these policies don't effect anyone but themselves. Who is paying for the refugees? Look at Sweden's rape % now since allowing the refugees in. Look at all the people murdered in France by refugees, it effected the world. What about those killed in the Geneva terrorist attack. Ya, no one was affected by that?... What a load of shit.
    We are talking about directives that are useless, not your attempts at finding scapegoats.

  16. #8796
    Quote Originally Posted by epLe View Post
    Thing is people in most european countries still remember how it was before EU existed.
    When EU members and the non-members all feel that EU only complicates things due to politics, everyone starts to think it was better before.
    This awkward child "EU" is only a political powerhouse, which struggle so much internally that schizophrenia would be a kind diagnostic.

    Different EU countries do not care the slightest for the other.
    People feel their nationality, and being "european" means nothing. We are not americans.
    That's why euro superstate will never work. Take a look at the US, the North and South can't agree on anything, now compare that to europe. Nothing would get done.

  17. #8797
    Quote Originally Posted by Miuku View Post
    Sorry, it's not. I can link you the article discussing the name change and the reason for it but I doubt you'll be able to translate it via Google Translate.

    https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oivariini

    They had to rename the entire product lineup because of it.
    Because that........isn't butter.

    That's generally what you'll find with EU directives. They will say if it's butter, call it butter. If it's not butter, call it something else.

    80% milk fat is not exactly an overly strict demand for something you want to call butter.

  18. #8798
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reklia View Post
    I quite agree with this.
    They don't overrule anything, they're negotiated agreements of standardisation of rules and practice that actually help with trade. How can you be 'overruled' by rules you help make? Whether it's employment law, consumer protection law, health and safety law, or basic human rights, the idea is to ensure no member of the bloc can unbalance things and try to compete on a basis of a 'race to the bottom' in those areas.

    Not to mention that the UK used its veto and was granted more exceptions than all the other nations combined.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2016-06-25 at 05:09 PM.

  19. #8799
    Deleted
    Bit long, but I saw this posted and thought it was quite good.

    "
    So why did you vote to leave?

    Its treaties taken together make, as Tony Benn once said, the “only constitution in the world committed to capitalism.” They place serious restrictions on public ownership, committing member states to open up public services to competition.
    A Labour government determined to take our railways and postal services back into public hands would soon run into trouble with the EU. To his credit, Jeremy Corbyn has indicated that this is a fight he would not shy away from. But it is undeniable that taking back what’s ours would be easier if we were not subject to the EU treaties, which can only be altered by unanimous agreement among all 28 member states.

    As well as being anti-socialist, the EU is undemocratic, in that its elected parliament is toothless, lacking even the formal power to initiate legislation; the orders are issued by the unelected Commission and the Central Bank.

    But worse, it is actively anti-democratic. It overrides democracy. Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker said when the people of Greece voted for a government that would end austerity: “There can be no democratic choice against the EU treaties.”
    Greece’s government was humiliated and ministers elected specifically to carry out a left-wing programme were forced to implement the most extreme programme of privatisation and cuts anywhere on the continent.

    Those who argue that austerity is a choice being made at a national level should ask why it is then that governments ostensibly on the left in France and Italy are attacking workers’ rights and public spending just as viciously as governments of the right. Seemingly it doesn’t matter who we Europeans elect any more: austerity is what we get.

    Some imply that a dislike of the EU is a peculiarly British phenomenon. But the reality is that few of Europe’s citizens have ever been given a choice.

    When they have, they have usually rejected what’s on offer — only for the EU to impose it anyway.

    The French rejected the EU Constitution, so it was incorporated into the Lisbon Treaty. The Irish rejected that, and were told to vote again till they got the right answer. This is an organisation with contempt for the voters at its core.

    Most on the left agree that the EU’s treatment of Greece was outrageous. Many would agree that it is anti-socialist and unaccountable. But we should stay in and reform it, they argue.

    Unfortunately, no plausible strategy for doing so has been put forward. The EU is designed to resist reform: hence the requirement for unanimity among member states before any treaty is altered.

    Acts of mass popular resistance, such as the millions-strong cross-border petition against TTIP, are simply ruled out of order by the Commission.

    Even so, a large number of socialists and trade unionists are convinced that a vote to Remain is the lesser of two evils.
    Some say leaving would cost us skilled jobs, pointing to threats from major manufacturers that they might relocate if we withdraw from the EU.

    But those threats should be seen for what they are — blackmail by the bosses. When the super rich whinge that they will flee London if we make them pay their fair share of tax, we ignore them.

    Giant corporations support membership of the EU because big business benefits from it. But membership can hardly have been good for British manufacturing, which has been decimated over the last four decades.

    EU bans on state aid to industry actually hinder efforts to protect our productive economy. Italy has been taken to court by the EU for trying to assist its steel industry.

    Others say that we face a bonfire of our rights by the Tories if we leave the EU with them in charge.
    But we’re facing a bonfire of our rights now. Since 2010 the Tories have slapped the Gagging Act and the Trade Union Act on our labour movement, have introduced massive fees for accessing employment tribunals, have vowed to “kill off the health and safety culture for good.”

    The EU hasn’t lifted a finger.
    Remainers who say the NHS isn’t safe with Michael Gove or Boris Johnson are absolutely right. But the NHS isn’t safe with Cameron either, as the Health and Social Care Act showed. And it certainly isn’t safe with TTIP, the secretive treaty being negotiated by the EU with the United States.

    The third and gravest point made by socialists for Remain is that a Leave victory would fuel racism, anti-immigrant bigotry and far-right violence.

    An obsession with immigration by the right-wing leaders of the Leave campaign has given this some weight. But we should be careful. The far right is on the march across Europe, in France, Austria and Hungary.

    Falling wages, mass unemployment and battered public services are feeding the resentment that gives birth to fascism. And the EU’s commitment to endless austerity contributes to that.

    Nor is the EU’s record on racism good. A deal with Turkey widely condemned as illegal has allowed it to wash its hands of desperate refugees. In Ukraine it supported a fascist-backed coup against an elected government. When France decided to deport tens of thousands of Roma in 2009-10, the EU looked the other way.

    There is no evidence that a Remain vote would help defeat the far right. The struggle against racism and intolerance is one we will have to wage either way.

    Since the beginning of the neoliberal era in the 1980s, we have seen corporate power strengthened at the expense of democracy again and again.

    The “big bang” deregulated the banks, putting big finance beyond our control. Independence for the Bank of England removed our ability to set interest rates. Global trade treaties are giving private companies the right to enter new markets whatever the people think about that, and increasingly the right to sue governments if they don’t like their policies.
    The EU is part and parcel of all this.
    "

  20. #8800
    Quote Originally Posted by Miuku View Post
    Sorry, it's not. I can link you the article discussing the name change and the reason for it but I doubt you'll be able to translate it via Google Translate.

    https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oivariini

    They had to rename the entire product lineup because of it.
    Is that margarine?

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