BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Deleted]

Again, if there is such a clear popular mandate for Brexit then you should have no issue scraping together a supermajority.

And how many things would you need one for anyway? You can change the entire government without one, you can go to war without one, you can do massive social changes without one.

But in this particular case there just has to be one because it isn't what a group of loudmouth internet kids want.

[Elegiac]

And how many things would you need one for anyway? You can change the entire government without one, you can go to war without one, you can do massive social changes without one.

Ideally, none. Referenda should not exist.

[Tempguy]

If the #majority of a country is stupid by your standards, perhaps you need to move your ass to a new country? Especially when you had the ability to do so up until recently.

An entire nation could think it's okay to eat shit and fuck anthills, when they vote to add licking hornets to that list, it should pass. If you dislike it, get the fuck out since you are so superior. So long as they are not commuting an act against basic human rights (that all nations are bound to uphold) then fuck what you think.

[MCMLXXXII]

All this crying about a supermajority should have been done before the referendum took place. Not after the results weren't the ones you were hoping for.

[Elegiac]

If the #majority of a country is stupid by your standards, perhaps you need to move your ass to a new country? Especially when you had the ability to do so up until recently.

The majority of voters in most countries aren't very informed as a rule, unfortunately. The necessity of representative bodies is less because 'the will of the people' is some sort of moral virtue and more to keep those at the top from losing sight of the basic needs of those at the bottom; but beyond that the actual nuts and bolts of government decision shouldn't be related to 'feels'.

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All this crying about a supermajority should have been done before the referendum took place. Not after the results weren't the ones you were hoping for.

Well hey, they're about as legally binding as each other (not at all).

[Deleted]

Apologize if this has already been covered in the previous 480 pages, but why is this a big deal? I mean US stock markets fell like 3% Friday, its worst day since 2011!

From what I can tell the withdrawal means:

1. Britain can now tighten its immigration restrictions.
2. Potentially renegotiate trade agreements, my assumption is they won't because they're so tightly integrated already.
3. Doesn't have to contribute to the EU anymore, which is basically a net wash because they get a fair amount back in benefits.

So really, the only impact is on immigration, and currently net immigration was only positive 300k last year (.5% of the population), and half of all immigrants already came from outside the EU, so even that impact seems small.

What am I missing?

Logic and common sense..
1, UK is not part of schengen. you have full control over your border
2, non-optional..you MUST renegotiate
3, £8,4 billion per year..NHS annual budget is £116 billion...do you think its gonna save it?

[Glnger]

Ideally, none. Referenda should not exist.

especially with wars, the people fighting the war should never have the right to vote for/against the war.

/sarcasm.

[Elegiac]

especially with wars, the people fighting the war should never have the right to vote for/against the war.

We don't conduct plebiscites over declarations of war, point in fact.

[Deleted]

Who says the 29% wasn't going to split evenly or even have a majority vote for leaving?

A split would have meant the community is more divided than they think already. Or maybe remain could have won, or maybe leave could have my miles further strengthening the argument, but it does not matter, as it's now too late. Eu is already on its way out anyway, let's just keep moving forward.

[Glnger]

We don't conduct plebiscites over declarations of war, point in fact.

I wonder why
(iraq)
oh... ya. politicians make much better decisions.

[Xisa]

Ideally, none. Referenda should not exist.

I agree, we should live in Dictatorships runs by our most brilliant and sophisticated. They know what's best for us.

[Elegiac]

I wonder why
(iraq)
oh... ya. politicians make much better decisions.

Their batting average is superior enough to direct democracy, frankly.

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I agree, we should live in Dictatorships runs by our most brilliant and sophisticated. They know what's best for us.

Or we can accept that direct democracy doesn't work and continue to design republican systems with representative institutions.

[Glnger]

Their batting average is superior enough to direct democracy, frankly.

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Or we can accept that direct democracy doesn't work and continue to design republican systems with representative institutions.

ya, Europe's elites really slammed one out of the park with the World Wars.
....
both of them

since then, WITH THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE EU and other alliances/agreements ect has led to the most peaceful times Europe(west Europe especially) has ever seen in hundreds of years.

[MCMLXXXII]

We don't conduct plebiscites over declarations of war, point in fact.

No you let the House of Lords decide about that.

[Elegiac]

ya, Europe's elites really slammed one out of the park with the World Wars.

You're aware that in both cases said governments rose to power or made their decisions based on tides of popular nationalism?

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No you let the House of Lords decide about that.

Then why bitch about how good democracy is.

[Glnger]

you're aware that in both cases said governments rose to power or made their decisions based on tides of popular nationalism?

what in the shit do you think brexit is?
did it rise on a tide of liberalism and the shared economy?

cmon now.....

[Deleted]

No you let the House of Lords decide about that.

The consent of royal family is also required, which Corbin attacked, the moron he is.

[Xisa]

Or we can accept that direct democracy doesn't work and continue to design republican systems with representative institutions.

Certain issues are too big for Representative Democracy. That why referenda exist.
I know you prefer authoritarian solutions, but dealing with Democracy (even the Representative flavor) means occasionally having to deal with things you don't like.

There is no perfect Governance. The Representative system (Parliament) in Britain resulted in an entire group of Politicians that are entirely tone-deaf to their constituencies. What did they think was going to happen? Can you imagine who'd be in the White House right now if the President was elected by legislative majorities?

We elect the President here on a (mostly) popular vote for a reason: It gives the Public a greater feeling of engagement and control over the outcome of their leadership. The Electoral college isn't 100% popular vote, but it's historically been close enough that it's been a relative non-issue.

[Deleted]

What they 'were promised' was significant socioeconomic benefits - which Britain has received in spades since it became a member of the EU.

So you are saying that the EU that exists today is the one that they voted into? I think a quick history check would prove many things about what they were promised that ended up being lies. No erosion of national sovereignty being the biggest one that convinced a cautious public that this might not be a bad idea.

If the EU just really stayed as a trading group of socioeconomic benefits, there would be very few claiming that it is a bad thing even from that generation. It is when it started becoming a social experiment that saw little obvious gains for average Joe as well as the concern that the EU was attempting to become a united superstate is when the older generation started to become sceptical.

Now you could agree or disagree with them on that point, perhaps you think a united states of Europe is the bestest idea ever, however it is clear that at least 17 million people do not from ALL age groups.

[Gangresnake]

Or we can accept that direct democracy doesn't work and continue to design republican systems with representative institutions.

Representative institutions that ignored the cry for help from the working middle class that was being eaten alive by globalism so far. Now those representative foolishly forgot it, put a referenda in front of them, and got the slap they deserved. Guess they're not so smart after all.

If direct democracy doesnt work, neither does the "elected representatives". Our modern societies are the very synthesis of the conclusion to this debate : Aka a mix of both.