BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Elegiac]

what in the shit do you think brexit is?

A demonstration of why checks are needed on the People as much as any other branch of government.

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Certain issues are too big for Representative Democracy.

Then they are too big for direct democracy either.

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So you are saying that the EU that exists today is the one that they voted into? I think a quick history check would prove many things about what they were promised that ended up being lies. No erosion of national sovereignty being the biggest one that convinced a cautious public that this might not be a bad idea.

Sounds like they have no understanding of what the term 'Union' means, then. Another black mark against their level of information.

[MCMLXXXII]

You're aware that in both cases said governments rose to power or made their decisions based on tides of popular nationalism?

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Then why bitch about how good democracy is.

Because IMO the House of Lords is the complete opposite of a direct democracy.

[Deleted]

Sounds like they have no understanding of what the term 'Union' means, then. Another black mark against their level of information.

So a union consists of giving up sovereignty for your country to have your laws governed by another across the water? Sounds very one sided for a union does it not?

[MCMLXXXII]

So a union consists of giving up sovereignty for your country to have your laws governed by another across the water? Sounds very one sided for a union does it not?

Sounds like the British Empire to me

[Xisa]

Then they are too big for direct democracy either.

That's inane nonsense, even by your standards.

The collective will of a citizenry is always more important than that of their representatives. Representation is meant to bring the best out of a society by letting its best guide the way.

When the guides fail? They get thrown on their ass, which is what happened here. All rule is mob rule. Republics are just idealistic versions of that.

[Deleted]

Sounds like the British Empire to me

Well yes, but that wasn't a voted for democratic err "union" though, was it?

[Elegiac]

Representative institutions that ignored the cry for help from the working middle class that was being eaten alive by globalism so far. Now those representative foolishly forgot it, put a referenda in front of them, and got the slap they deserved. Guess they're not so smart after all.

There's a difference between 'ignoring' and 'weighing the cost versus benefit'.

What the working middle class doesn't seem to grasp is that globalism is a thing regardless of EU membership; and with very good reason, because for the -vast- majority of people trade tends to result in an increased and more diverse supply of products at lower cost. Naturally this results in shifts as areas of production transfer between states in a trend towards rationalisation of production. Moreover, they put forward contradictory demands - wanting higher paying jobs for the same work, when said higher pay encourages automation further by making the capital expenditure of automation increasingly worthwhile.

They are being 'eaten alive' by the natural attrition of the shift from industrial to post-industrial society. It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

If direct democracy doesnt work, neither does the "elected representatives". Our modern societies are the very synthesis of the conclusion to this debate : Aka a mix of both.

Most modern societies are intelligent enough to limit the amount of direct voter participation.

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So a union consists of giving up sovereignty for your country to have your laws governed by another across the water? Sounds very one sided for a union does it not?

And in turn derive the economic security and benefit of having a much greater collective market and tax pool.

Exactly why is 'sovereignty' such a good thing, in objective terms?

[Deleted]

Most modern societies are intelligent enough to limit the amount of direct voter participation.

Yeah, just look at North Korea.

Oh dear...What am I discussing with right now?

[Bollocks]

Representative institutions that ignored the cry for help from the working middle class that was being eaten alive by globalism so far. Now those representative foolishly forgot it, put a referenda in front of them, and got the slap they deserved. Guess they're not so smart after all.

If direct democracy doesnt work, neither does the "elected representatives". Our modern societies are the very synthesis of the conclusion to this debate : Aka a mix of both.

You can't stop globalism.

[Elegiac]

That's inane nonsense, even by your standards.

If the long term and big picture effects of an issue are invisible to people at the top then why on earth would they be miraculously more visible to the people at the bottom.

The collective will of a citizenry is always more important than that of their representatives. Representation is meant to bring the best out of a society by letting its best guide the way.

When the guides fail? They get thrown on their ass, which is what happened here. All rule is mob rule. Republics are just idealistic versions of that.

So therefore it's pointless to discuss politics because all good decisions will be thrown onto the bonfire at some point by an ignorant mob?

[MCMLXXXII]

And in turn derive the economic security and benefit of having a much greater collective market and tax pool.

Exactly why is 'sovereignty' such a good thing, in objective terms?

Don't know. Ask the US

[Elegiac]

Yeah, just look at North Korea.

The demands of the 'working class' in Britain are much more in line with North Korean policies than otherwise.

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Don't know. Ask the US

You mean the US which has been in a state of perpetual union for the past few centuries?

The US is the main example of the benefits of Union.

[Bollocks]

Don't know. Ask the US

They are about to elect Donald Trump. So I certainly don't regard the opinion that high. And the US is already one step away from being a technocratic society.

[Elegiac]

They are about to elect Donald Trump.

An increasingly less likely outcome, point in fact.

And the US is already one step away from being a technocratic society.

More than one step, unfortunately.

[Deleted]

The demands of the 'working class' in Britain are much more in line with North Korean policies than otherwise.

Okay, I am sorry but that is the biggest crock of shit I have seen posted on this thread thus far. You are very good at looking down your nose at the "uneducated" while not seeming to have much of a clue yourself, it doesn't look good on you.

[MCMLXXXII]

The demands of the 'working class' in Britain are much more in line with North Korean policies than otherwise.

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You mean the US which has been in a state of perpetual union for the past few centuries?

The US is the main example of the benefits of Union.

Except you can't compare the US to the EU. They started an Union straight after gaining independence. The EU started as an small economic joint-venture and transformed to the bureaucratic monstrosity it is today.

[Elegiac]

Except you can't compare the US to the EU. They started an Union straight after gaining independence. The EU started as an small economic joint-venture and transformed to the bureaucratic monstrosity it is today.

You must be very, very ill-informed about US history if you think that is the case. All of these things we're seeing with the EU? Pretty much all of them have American analogues.

Much of the problem with the EU is that it doesn't have enough power, actually.

[PC2]

The demands of the 'working class' in Britain are much more in line with North Korean policies than otherwise.

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You mean the US which has been in a state of perpetual union for the past few centuries?

The US is the main example of the benefits of Union.

The union only worked because outer borders ment something. Weak borders and unions don't work.

[Elegiac]

Okay, I am sorry but that is the biggest crock of shit I have seen posted on this thread thus far.

Really? Last I recall the 'working class' are decrying globalism, immigration, and the attendant displacement from their jobs as a result of those things. They want a self-sufficient and independent country when in reality the only example of such a country existing in the modern world is North Korea.

[Bollocks]

Yeah, just look at North Korea.

Oh dear...What am I discussing with right now?

He is right. In Bolivia important issues are not left to public vote, this is to prevent populist leaders from destroying our economy. The USA already has one. Most nations have limits the power of direct vote, to prevent a goverment from self-destructing itself or to simply prevent a totalitarian goverment (Leaders who do what they want by feeding their electorate with propaganda to get their support)