What should the Warrior Legion title be? (minor spoilers)

[Toppy]

Don't hyperbole, there is no official real Valhalla to base it on but it definitely share aspects with what little stuff we "know" about it. Logically Valhalla is the human warrior afterlife, only difference is vrykul instead of human?

Not logically since the keepers make a clear distinction between human and vrykul.

There were dozens of other more "warrior like" options available. We were given a hyper magical light touched sky castle. They could have kept the Vrykul theme and had it, be, say, a giant wall keeping out the demons, or a vrykul keep situated in the middle of an eternal battlefield, or even just putting it in a mountain would have fit better since then it wouldn't have been overly saturated in magic like what we have.

Heck if you know much about Nordic myth you'd realize that the WoW Valhalla isnt much like whats described in legend. If anything what we get is more akin to marvel norse mythology.

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That's the thing, you're mixing the Nordic mythology with Warcraft's mythology. Not to mention that Vrykul are not a Warrior-only people so it's even more odd to force that mythology upon warriors.

Added to this many of the valajar are notably, unquestionably, not warriors.

[Murlocbait]

Don't hyperbole, there is no official real Valhalla to base it on but it definitely share aspects with what little stuff we "know" about it. Logically Valhalla is the human warrior afterlife, only difference is vrykul instead of human?

If you're going to talk about Valhalla, then you need to define what one you are talking about. I assume we're all referring to the location in Norse mythology when the term is used without a modifier like "Marvel's" or "Warcraft's". In that case, there is an official Valhalla, the one written about in the Edda of Norse myth. Sure some details can change from one story to the next, but the gist of it remains the same. With that in mind, the broad stroke is "Hall the bravest viking warriors are taken to after death to eat, drink, and fight while they wait for Raggnarok." The Halls of Valor are not a place for warriors, it is clearly a place for Vrykul who are chosen by Odyn - the game establishes that VERY clearly, as there are Vrykul of many different backgrounds there, not just warriors. The player warrior is there NOT after dying, but rather whisked away just before dying. It's a place for Odyn's Vrykul army to apparently eat, drink, and prepare for whatever battle he's into - but he is traped/not-trapped there; and he cannot send his warriors forth, but you can.

It's inconsistent, poorly designed, and ultimately Vrykul heaven. It is not an afterlife for the bravest warriors of Azeroth, which would've been an interesting and far more thematically appropriate vision for it. But that's not what we got.

[Jngizu]

To be honest though, I have to agree that it's not easy choosing a thematic for warriors. The 3 specs are completely different and more importantly, there's no "order" representing warriors in WoW yet AFAIK. The closest would be some Ork clan, but not only did we spend an entire xpac dealing with them, ally players would go crazy if our hall was filled with ork NPC's.

That being said, the Nordic mythology wouldn't bother me if it was implemented properly, but as of right now, it's poorly written.

[Baracuda]

That's the thing, you're mixing the Nordic mythology with Warcraft's mythology. Not to mention that Vrykul are not a Warrior-only people so it's even more odd to force that mythology upon warriors.

There weren't that many casters in old Norse stories so yeah, of course it's not the same. I know warrior is a very strict term in Warcraft but outside of that it's anyone that participates in battle and many of those who died in battle went to Valhalla, even if you didn't fight up close.

Not logically since the keepers make a clear distinction between human and vrykul.

Added to this many of the valajar are notably, unquestionably, not warriors.

You misunderstand, when I type Valhalla I mean Norse Mythology, I.E. real human warriors I.E. vikings. I'm not in the beta so I don't know if it's flying or if it's on a mountain, hard to tell from videos. Too bad if it's the former but as I said before: should that be the main focus of it? Not like it isn't cool enough on its own without worrying about where it's located.

For the bolded part, see my first response in this comment.

If you're going to talk about Valhalla, then you need to define what one you are talking about. I assume we're all referring to the location in Norse mythology when the term is used without a modifier like "Marvel's" or "Warcraft's". In that case, there is an official Valhalla, the one written about in the Edda of Norse myth. Sure some details can change from one story to the next, but the gist of it remains the same. With that in mind, the broad stroke is "Hall the bravest viking warriors are taken to after death to eat, drink, and fight while they wait for Raggnarok." The Halls of Valor are not a place for warriors, it is clearly a place for Vrykul who are chosen by Odyn - the game establishes that VERY clearly, as there are Vrykul of many different backgrounds there, not just warriors. The player warrior is there NOT after dying, but rather whisked away just before dying. It's a place for Odyn's Vrykul army to apparently eat, drink, and prepare for whatever battle he's into - but he is traped/not-trapped there; and he cannot send his warriors forth, but you can.

It's inconsistent, poorly designed, and ultimately Vrykul heaven. It is not an afterlife for the bravest warriors of Azeroth, which would've been an interesting and far more thematically appropriate vision for it. But that's not what we got.

It's not like other classes' order halls are strictly limited to their class; Acherus has liches/mages/warriors, Hunter Lodge has, at least until Legion, non-traditional hunters like Rexxar and Dark Rangers. I don't see why other classes being present somehow diminishes the places... I thought Odyn and friends were trapped because Helya trapped them there? Finally, even though I think discussing "facts" about Norse mythology is as retarded as discussing any religious facts, didn't Odin choose the (humans) ones who would go to Valhalla?

[Jngizu]

I don't think anyone is discussing if the Nordic mythology is fitting for the Warrior or not, but if the way it is implemented in the game fits it. That's where most our issues come from. You reply to my post proves that too. I'm talking about Vrykuls in the game, not Vikings. Same thing for the NPC's, Valhalla is for all Vrykul, no matter what class they are, it is their heaven in the game. What's the connection with warriors there? So to put all of this together, the thematic is not the problem, the feeling that it doesn't really connect to Warriors, is.

I do think the Viking them comes a bit out of nowhere though, but as I said, there wasn't really a strong Warrior order to pull from aside from Orks.

[Toppy]

There weren't that many casters in old Norse stories so yeah, of course it's not the same. I know warrior is a very strict term in Warcraft but outside of that it's anyone that participates in battle and many of those who died in battle went to Valhalla, even if you didn't fight up close.



You misunderstand, when I type Valhalla I mean Norse Mythology, I.E. real human warriors I.E. vikings. I'm not in the beta so I don't know if it's flying or if it's on a mountain, hard to tell from videos. Too bad if it's the former but as I said before: should that be the main focus of it? Not like it isn't cool enough on its own without worrying about where it's located.

For the bolded part, see my first response in this comment.



It's not like other classes' order halls are strictly limited to their class; Acherus has liches/mages/warriors, Hunter Lodge has, at least until Legion, non-traditional hunters like Rexxar and Dark Rangers. I don't see why other classes being present somehow diminishes the places... I thought Odyn and friends were trapped because Helya trapped them there? Finally, even though I think discussing "facts" about Norse mythology is as retarded as discussing any religious facts, didn't Odin choose the (humans) ones who would go to Valhalla?

Archerus has liches yes, but liches using DK magic. Though it does not have mages of warriors. The alternates in the other classes halls are at least -related- to the class.

Hunters have hunters. Exactly.

Warriors have only Vrykul, many of which who arent related to warriors.

[Calith-]

It's not like other classes' order halls are strictly limited to their class; Acherus has liches/mages/warriors, Hunter Lodge has, at least until Legion, non-traditional hunters like Rexxar and Dark Rangers. I don't see why other classes being present somehow diminishes the places...

The difference is that Archerus and the Hunter Lodge both have obvious connections to the classes they represent and isn't confusing the issue by giving the players mixed messages about who belongs there.

The only tenuous connection between Warriors and their Hall is the common idea that Valhalla = Warriors, and Blizzard have tried their damnedest to make that not be the case in Warcraft. The Valarjar isn't a Warrior faction, it's rigorously established as a Vrykul faction that represents Vrykuls of every class. The entire focus of the Warrior Hall is to expand Vrykul and Titan Watcher lore. Nothing about the place relates to Warriors except the completely external idea that it's Valhalla.

[Baracuda]

Archerus has liches yes, but liches using DK magic. Though it does not have mages of warriors. The alternates in the other classes halls are at least -related- to the class.

Hunters have hunters. Exactly.

Warriors have only Vrykul, many of which who arent related to warriors.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Coldwraith = Mage. The undead servants = Warriors, in the sense that they use melee and can't control magic. They're hardly signficant but in a discussion about the classes of cannon fodder vrykul they're quite relevant. Also just because Liches can teach DKs some stuff it doesn't reduce them to "DK magic" users. I guess this entire discussion is a little off-topic though since it's really supposed to be about a title... Closing statement: just because we're a simple class it doesn't mean we need an order hall on the ground, if the hall itself sucks is another matter. I think constructive criticism on how to improve the Hall is what should be discussed if anything because it's what we're getting... haven't really seen a serious alternative suggestion either.

[Toppy]

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Coldwraith = Mage. The undead servants = Warriors, in the sense that they use melee and can't control magic. They're hardly signficant but in a discussion about the classes of cannon fodder vrykul they're quite relevant. Also just because Liches can teach DKs some stuff it doesn't reduce them to "DK magic" users. I guess this entire discussion is a little off-topic though since it's really supposed to be about a title... Closing statement: just because we're a simple class it doesn't mean we need an order hall on the ground, if the hall itself sucks is another matter. I think constructive criticism on how to improve the Hall is what should be discussed if anything because it's what we're getting... haven't really seen a serious alternative suggestion either.

Many of these were removed for the new Archerus. Its all DK and one lich now.

Plus some ghouls but those are summoned by DK.

EDIT:
And the hall does suck by the way. Its incredibly small, and nothing is ever going on there. It looks great no doubt, but from a design standpoint, its just garbage. Its four long hall ways and small little areas with stuff that is way to big for anyone but a Vrykul to use. Its just empty and dead.

Compared to other halls, its garbage.

[Murlocbait]

To be honest though, I have to agree that it's not easy choosing a thematic for warriors. The 3 specs are completely different and more importantly, there's no "order" representing warriors in WoW yet AFAIK. The closest would be some Ork clan, but not only did we spend an entire xpac dealing with them, ally players would go crazy if our hall was filled with ork NPC's.

Strongly disagree. Warriors have a theme, it's the first three letters of our class name: WAR. Battle. That's the theme of warriors. Each spec might approach battle differently, but it comes down to martial prowess. Fighting with weapons. That's the class theme. That there isn't an established order representing warriors is precisely WHY this was the perfect time to introduce one. There is a massive invasion happening, leaders of nations are dying. It's the fucking apocalypse. Perfect time for a band of warriors to come together across racial and faction lines to stand as one bulwark against the flood of death and destruction descending upon Azeroth. Instead, we get Vrykul heaven complete with the most asinine and incompetent leader they could possibly come up with.
Edit to avoid double post:

I think constructive criticism on how to improve the Hall is what should be discussed if anything because it's what we're getting... haven't really seen a serious alternative suggestion either.

Then you must've missed the other threads about how shitty the class hall is, complete with numerous suggestions on what would have been better. It's moot at this point (hell it was always moot, the decision was made long before we even knew about class halls), but there were plenty of better options. Even our silly palace in the clouds could have been okay if they had just made it a WARRIOR hall and not Vrykul heaven.

[Toppy]

Strongly disagree. Warriors have a theme, it's the first three letters of our class name: WAR. Battle. That's the theme of warriors. Each spec might approach battle differently, but it comes down to martial prowess. Fighting with weapons. That's the class theme. That there isn't an established order representing warriors is precisely WHY this was the perfect time to introduce one. There is a massive invasion happening, leaders of nations are dying. It's the fucking apocalypse. Perfect time for a band of warriors to come together across racial and faction lines to stand as one bulwark against the flood of death and destruction descending upon Azeroth. Instead, we get Vrykul heaven complete with the most asinine and incompetent leader they could possibly come up with.

Yeah anyone saying the three specs are completely different never played a warrior.

One big unifying theme of warriors is that its brutal, in your face, and lacking in magic. Paladins and DK are the other plate wearing badass classes, and they openly and constantly use magic to do their heavy lifting for them. Warriors use their strength and skill of arms above all else. Even Rogues who were once all physical are now loaded with magic and defined by poisons and deceit.

Out of all classes, warrior is the one whose specs are most unified thematically.

[Jngizu]

I strongly disagree actually. I do see my Warrior the same as you do. But I guarantee you that not everyone is like that. Protection for them is being the shield of the party, Arms is more about being a battle and weapon master, while Fury would be the in-your-face berzerker. If we only talk about Warriors using only their strength and martial skills to overcome their enemies, then yes I would agree. But the way the 3 specs go about it are extremely different thematically depending on the person.

On the other hand though, if you take a Paladin, all they are about is fighting evil using the Light. Sure the way they go about might be different, but all 3 specs have the same theme and idea between them. Same thing for DK's. Warriors are a lot more lose. Every spec can be seen in a completely different way. You only need to look at this thread to see what I'm talking about :

I gotta say, I don't particularly like Warbringer.

I mainly play my warrior as Protection. I see him as protector, a defender not a warbringer.

Ah well, tiny details in the larger scheme. There are more titles to use.

Or even this one :

Am I the only one that doesn't picture their warrior as anything berserk like?
I picture a Master swordsman with a level head in combat that knows his blade as if its an extension of his own arm and can strike you exactly where he wants to with maximum precision do the maximum amount of damage.

The REAL problem with warrior is while every other class gets SPEC fantasies example being Rogue each spec now has entirely different fantasies... warriors they seem to forget that and try and generalize all 3 specs into 1 overall fantasy. The one I described above is for my Arms warrior, Obviously it doesn't fit Fury very well but you get the message I'm trying to convey.

Ah, and as for this being the perfect time to create a new Warrior order, I wholeheartedly agree. But, I do think the Viking theme is not particularly a bad one in itself (although coming completely out of nowhere), it's just at the very least implemented extremely badly.

[Murlocbait]

I strongly disagree actually. I do see my Warrior the same as you do. But I guarantee you that not everyone is like that. Protection for them is being the shield of the party, Arms is more about being a battle and weapon master, while Fury would be the in-your-face berzerker. If we only talk about Warriors using only their strength and martial skills to overcome their enemies, then yes I would agree. But the way the 3 specs go about it are extremely different thematically depending on the person.

They're not that different. No different than Shadow vs Disc vs Holy. All three specs are about martial prowess and fighting in melee combat without magic, just you and your weapon. Whether it's through discipline and weapon mastery, giving into the frenzy and bloodlust of the battlefield, or becoming a living wall between the enemy and your companions - it's still about the love of battle. That's the unifying class theme. We're WARriors.

[Toppy]

They're not that different. No different than Shadow vs Disc vs Holy. All three specs are about martial prowess and fighting in melee combat without magic, just you and your weapon. Whether it's through discipline and weapon mastery, giving into the frenzy and bloodlust of the battlefield, or becoming a living wall between the enemy and your companions - it's still about the love of battle. That's the unifying class theme. We're WARriors.

Yeah, warrior specs are very alike. Especcially when you look at other class specs and see how incredibly different each one is. You cant say warrior specs are distinct from one another while knowing what the other classes specs are, with a straight face.

[Recke]

I strongly disagree actually. I do see my Warrior the same as you do. But I guarantee you that not everyone is like that. Protection for them is being the shield of the party, Arms is more about being a battle and weapon master, while Fury would be the in-your-face berzerker. If we only talk about Warriors using only their strength and martial skills to overcome their enemies, then yes I would agree. But the way the 3 specs go about it are extremely different thematically depending on the person.

The problem with saying that they are very different is, each of those three specs are focused on combat and not using magic. I can imagine them all marching into combat. Protection, being the front line, "being the shield of the party." Arms and Fury, both behind the walls of Armor known as Prot, Arms waiting for their time to strike, tactically and with experience, only going in to fight the key targets, Fury "berserking" and furiously slashing at any and all enemies near by. It follows the description you set, but they are all, as Warriors, in the same situation. They march together, they go to war together, they die together. They have no need for things outside of battle, where as a Paladin may enrich himself in the Light, Priests may contemplate the sun or moon, Death Knights question what a Hero Class really is, Mages studying the Arcane for reasons not spec-specific, or Hunters hunting.

Purposefully picking a terrible counter example, Holy and Disc Priests may get along, but Shadow Priests with their upcoming Insanity design and corruption from old gods seem like it would never be accepted in the same 30 feet as other priests, unlike warriors who all go and practice fighting. Protection Warrior still fights to be able to defend others.

[Damaind]

The problem with saying that they are very different is, each of those three specs are focused on combat and not using magic. I can imagine them all marching into combat. Protection, being the front line, "being the shield of the party." Arms and Fury, both behind the walls of Armor known as Prot, Arms waiting for their time to strike, tactically and with experience, only going in to fight the key targets, Fury "berserking" and furiously slashing at any and all enemies near by. It follows the description you set, but they are all, as Warriors, in the same situation. They march together, they go to war together, they die together. They have no need for things outside of battle, where as a Paladin may enrich himself in the Light, Priests may contemplate the sun or moon, Death Knights question what a Hero Class really is, Mages studying the Arcane for reasons not spec-specific, or Hunters hunting.

Purposefully picking a terrible counter example, Holy and Disc Priests may get along, but Shadow Priests with their upcoming Insanity design and corruption from old gods seem like it would never be accepted in the same 30 feet as other priests, unlike warriors who all go and practice fighting. Protection Warrior still fights to be able to defend others.

There will never be a distinction between warrior specs until they make rage a resource for Fury only(maybe prot too) but for sure I think Arms would benefit greatly to a new resource.

Fury should be the only spec that uses Rage(or Rage as a primary means for resource) Because well... fury aka furious bloodthirsty it makes sense... Arms should be more of a precision fighter with a level head in combat that doesn't enrage(use rage) to fight. Like I said before:
I picture a Master swordsman with a level head in combat that knows his blade as if its an extension of his own arm and can strike you exactly where he wants to with maximum precision do the maximum amount of damage.

Notice how every class now has a fantasy for each of their specs? Yet here we are will warrior forcing the same over generalization across the entire board. Once this is addressed is when warrior will stop struggling with identity and maybe the specs will start to feel unique and fresh again.... OR blizz will continue to ignore us and just jam the Norse theme down out throats for the next 2 xpacs (god that would be awful considering A. Norse is ONE type of warrior and B. a fair amount of people do NOT like Norse mythology.)

[Deleted]

A couple of days I logged into the beta realms after having not done so for quite a while, and instantly remembered why I stopped initially.

Hint: My warrior was still in Skyhold (this awful red/ orange whatever filter is something I already perceive as monotonous, and I have been in Skyhold probably not more than three times)

[Baracuda]

A. Norse is ONE type of warrior and B. a fair amount of people do NOT like Norse mythology.)

A: Completely wrong. Vikings may be perceived as berserkers but dual wielding was definitely not the only fighting style they used (doubt many did). Many used shield and spear, others used 2h axes etc.

B: There will always be a fair amount of people who don't like X.

[Toppy]

A: Completely wrong. Vikings may be perceived as berserkers but dual wielding was definitely not the only fighting style they used (doubt many did). Many used shield and spear, others used 2h axes etc.

B: There will always be a fair amount of people who don't like X.

Either way, the issue isnt the viking theme itself.

Its that the theme does not fit WoW warriors nor is blizzard trying to make it fit. They just came and went "You're vikings now" with no attempt to make it fit.

[Murlocbait]

A: Completely wrong. Vikings may be perceived as berserkers but dual wielding was definitely not the only fighting style they used (doubt many did). Many used shield and spear, others used 2h axes etc.

B: There will always be a fair amount of people who don't like X.

I don't think he meant vikings only fought in one way, but that vikings are only one type of warrior archetype from human history. Most warriors in fantasy RPGs tend to draw on some type of archetype from our world, and shoehorning WoW warriors = vikings leaves out many other historical eras and cultures that could serve as inspiration to make WoW warriors more interesting with richer lore.

Edit: To expand on why this is a problem... One of the great things about WoW warriors for 11 years has been the fact that every race could play a warrior. Blizz left a lot open to players to create their own class fantasy during this time, and I think a lot of warriors heavily connected the class with their chosen race. Each race in the game has its own type of warrior or guards, from the knights of Stormwind to the Deathguard of Undercity and everything in between. You could roll up a Pandaren warrior and imagine being a samurai or make an orc and be a relentless berserker fighting for blood and honor. There was room for everything. By shoving "VIKINGS RAWR!!" down our throats, it eliminates a lot of that. They could have created a new order that worked with 11 years of gameplay and player ideas, rather than throwing everything aside.