BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Deleted]

It's not "punishment". It's the consequence of the UK going out. That literally means "going out". The whole point of this was to sever the ties. It wasn't a vote to "go out a little bit" or "go out on everything we don't like" or anything else, it was "leave". The referendum and the entire debate is a bit binary on this. It's in or out. So, now they decided for "out", which is fine. And the next step they do is talk about what parts of the whole deal they get to retain. No, that's not what you wanted. You wanted to retain bascially no ties. That's what you guys voted for. Now you get it, now you sever ties. And then we'll discuss how to move onwards from there. And this means you're effectively not a member state, do not get to enjoy the benefits of being a member state. You're practically OUT.

That you lot now realise "Oh shit, this means this and that and those things are gone..." is cute, but a bit late. You should've thought about that before you made the decision to go out. Everyone and their dog has been telling you about these consequences months in advance, repeatedly, ad nauseum. They told you these were the consequences. You don't get to call this "punishment" for something to happen that you were warned about before the fact. This is not emotion, this is part of the automatism that the UK set in motion.

Blame anyone you like, but this one time, you're really responsible for whatever happens to you. This is part of the glorified sovereigntiy and free will that you lot cherished so much in this referendum. This is part of you sovereignly fucking yourself up. We told you this wouldn't be pretty. We warned you. You simply do not get to play the victim now. So fuck off with that bullshit already and man up.

Can you please, please, stop thinking that I am someone who didn't see this coming? Or that I am someone who voted for Leave and wanted to stick the middle finger up to the EU? I voted to Remain, I didn't want this, but its happening, so we've got to man up and get on with it.

I am not arguing that we don't deserve it, we do, we voted for it.

I am arguing that it would be a benefit to the EU to allow us access the EEA, because there is literally no downside for the EU.

[SheepHunter]

id say leave

[Noradin]

Currently the UK is still a member of the EU. Complete with the right to veto any changes to article 50.

Yes, they have the opportunity to sabotage the EU as much as they want, and they will try to use this as blackmail, of that I'm pretty sure.

[Slant]

Then they should stipulate that a super majority vote is needed to exit before the actual vote. Preposterous to come in after losing and saying it should've or ought to have after the fact. That's not have it works and I'm damn happy that is the case.

Then again i predicted that UK would not be allowed to leave by the powers that be no matter what the votes say. I'm happy to be proven wrong in this case but the cynic in me know better.

Again with the conspiracy theories. One thing is for certain, nobody on the EU side will make Britain do or not do anything exept keep a timely schedule. Tuesday is going to be very interesting. I really hope Cameron doesn't dick around and presents the formal request to leave. I've said it before on this forum, I want Britain to make up its mind and either get in or out, but stop the half assed standing undecided in the door bullshit.

So they did, time to make sure their wish is granted. To the letter.

[Deleted]

I've got some good laughs out of this so far, but seriously, returning to status quo would make this one of the most expensive jokes in history, even ignoring all the civil unrest this has caused. I have to wonder if backing down really is an option.

Backing down isn't an option. It's happened now, and we've just got to get on with it and try to make the best of it.

It sucks, but thats life.

[Mayhem]

Well let´s see how the markets react about the uncertainty the UK leavers are now showing. The summer will be interesting.

[dribbles]

Yes, they have the opportunity to sabotage the EU as much as they want, and they will try to use this as blackmail, of that I'm pretty sure.

Absolutely, wouldn't you? What a wonderful position we are in.

[Deleted]

"Make it right"? What does that mean? Restarting the EU project won't change the parameters. France and Germany will still be the biggest bloc in the EU. The UK still won't want to play with anyone else, because they disrespect everyone except when Germany and France bully them and the smaller countries will still only play ball if their influence is disproportionally higher than their actual population is.

And ignorant people will still have nationalistic sentiments and oppose everything that goes beyond their borders. You can't make small minds better just by willing it to be better.

Of course smaller countries want more influence. Countries like Sweden wouldn't have anything at all to say if that wasn't the case and would have to bow down to whatever decision some quasi third world EU nation decided on simply because they have a large population.

I'm sure you globalists would be thrilled if all decisions could be made for us in Brussels and then simply be told what to think and what to do. No thank you.

[Deleted]

Well let´s see how the markets react about the uncertainty the UK leavers are now showing. The summer will be interesting.

It will also interesting to compare the reaction of the UK markets with the EU markets, especially if the EU keeps the hardline position.

[bufferunderrun]

Can you please, please, stop thinking that I am someone who didn't see this coming? Or that I am someone who voted for Leave and wanted to stick the middle finger up to the EU? I voted to Remain, I didn't want this, but its happening, so we've got to man up and get on with it.

I am not arguing that we don't deserve it, we do, we voted for it.

I am arguing that it would be a benefit to the EU to allow us access the EEA, because there is literally no downside for the EU.

sure you can have it, what we are trying to say is that it won't be free and it won't be full of exception like our previous membership; in the end you will be subject to most of eu law, you will be asked for money contribution but you won't have any say or veto on the creation of those law.
Did you think that Boris or Farage will accept this deal?

[Slant]

Can you please, please, stop thinking that I am someone who didn't see this coming? Or that I am someone who voted for Leave and wanted to stick the middle finger up to the EU? I voted to Remain, I didn't want this, but its happening, so we've got to man up and get on with it.

I am not arguing that we don't deserve it, we do, we voted for it.

I am arguing that it would be a benefit to the EU to allow us access the EEA, because there is literally no downside for the EU.

I don't care what you personally think, you lot are in this together. Don't even try to shift the responsibility to just the people that voted leave. You're one country, one nation. Deal with the consequence like a man does. This is democracy at work, so stop whinging like a baby about what you personally feel. You're here to discuss what happens next I presume, and what happens next is that you lot are ALL of you going to bear the consequences of this referendum. And you do not get to blame anyone else or call this "punishment" in any possible manner. You just do not have the right to call this punishment.

And what is or isn't a benefit to the EU is honestly not a concern of the UK anymore. And vice versa. Should they allow you to be part of the EEA as part of a smart decision? Absolutely. Should you pay the appropriate price for that? Absolutely. Will that price be a LOT higher than what you're currently paying? All estimates point towards "Heck yeah, a hell of a lot higher, because a smart decision does not include a rebate based on... no return value."

And no, sir, just being graciously allowed to sell shit to you is not enough return value to grant you a rebate, your market is big, but it's not that big...

[Deleted]

Well let´s see how the markets react about the uncertainty the UK leavers are now showing. The summer will be interesting.

Is there uncertainty? Or is that just what the media is reporting? The truth and what we are fed trough media are two entirely different things.

[Deleted]

I'm sure you globalists would be thrilled if all decisions could be made for us in Brussels and then simply be told what to think and what to do. No thank you.

Yes, because globalism starts and stops inside the EU.

The smaller are attracted to the bigger, it's the universal law of gravity.

[Mayhem]

Is there uncertainty? Or is that just what the media is reporting? The truth and what we are fed trough media are two entirely different things.

For every company currently within the UK having major trade partners within the EU? Let´s say YES.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I've got some good laughs out of this so far, but seriously, returning to status quo would make this one of the most expensive jokes in history, even ignoring all the civil unrest this has caused. I have to wonder if backing down really is an option.

I know, it's bloody stupid.

But what alternatives other than those two are there?

It wasn't a binding referendum - it was nothing more than a glorified opinion poll, and the result was that overall, the country doesn't know if it wants to leave the EU or not. The TeamLeave policies have been shown (by none other than the leaders of TeamLeave themselves) that they cannot be implemented. Johnson, Farage and Gove have backtracked on EVERY issue they promised change on. There won't be a change in immigration. There won't be extra money for the NHS. Johnson wants to postpone submitting Article 50 and NOBODY is saying anything to the contrary. Not even Farage, who up until Thursday had been saying we have to leave "RIGHT NOW!".

There is apparently zero appetite in Westminster to leave the EU. There is zero appetite in TeamLeave to push for it since the result was announced 55 hours ago. What would be easier, than to simply brush it under the rug and not go further? Farage is finished, as is UKIP. He lost any kudos he might have had left after losing his seat in Westminster when he said that immigration would not be reduced. That has been the foundation for his party's single policy - get out of Europe and regain control over immigration.

The only party to come out of this debacle somewhat intact are the Lib Dems of all people. Are we going to see a Lib Dem government at the next general election, simply because the Tories and Labour have torn themselves apart? Labour voters don't want to vote for Corbyn's labour. Half of the Tory voters don't want to vote for Johnson's lot (and the other half don't want to vote for the remnants of Cameron's cabinet).

[Deleted]

Is there uncertainty? Or is that just what the media is reporting? The truth and what we are fed trough media are two entirely different things.

The UK political crisis is a lie?

[Deleted]

I don't care what you personally think, you lot are in this together. Don't even try to shift the responsibility to just the people that voted leave. You're one country, one nation. Deal with the consequence like a man does. This is democracy at work, so stop whinging like a baby about what you personally feel. You're here to discuss what happens next I presume, and what happens next is that you lot are ALL of you going to bear the consequences of this referendum. And you do not get to blame anyone else or call this "punishment" in any possible manner. You just do not have the right to call this punishment.

And what is or isn't a benefit to the EU is honestly not a concern of the UK anymore. And vice versa. Should they allow you to be part of the EEA as part of a smart decision? Absolutely. Should you pay the appropriate price for that? Absolutely. Will that price be a LOT higher than what you're currently paying? All estimates point towards "Heck yeah, a hell of a lot higher, because a smart decision does not include a rebate based on... no return value." And no, sir, just being graciously allowed to sell shit to you is not enough return value to grant you a rebate, your market is big, but it's not that big...

Right, so your agreeing with me that the EU sees no downsides to the UK being in the EEA, your agreeing with me that the UK should man up and get on with it, and your agreeing with with me that this is a solid showing of democracy. You just feel like being a dick about it as well.

[Mayhem]

Absolutely, wouldn't you? What a wonderful position we are in.

You don´t even understand how much this one day already cost the UK, draging it out even further wouldn´t exactly help with attracting companies, quite the opposite.

[Deleted]

The UK political crisis is a lie?

I'm talking about the people not the politicians.

[Slant]

Of course smaller countries want more influence. Countries like Sweden wouldn't have anything at all to say if that wasn't the case and would have to bow down to whatever decision some quasi third world EU nation decided on simply because they have a large population.

I'm sure you globalists would be thrilled if all decisions could be made for us in Brussels and then simply be told what to think and what to do. No thank you.

I'm not disagreeing with you. There is a reason this is one of the biggest fundamental problems of the EU. Should Sweden have as much influence as Germany? Heck no. Should Germany be able to outright ignore Sweden? Uhhh, yeah no that's stupid, too. So what's the middle ground? And at this stage the UK leaves the room, because it's all to bothersome... thanks for the help, mates.

So, no. A EU reboot doesn't have much higher chances than the current EU has. People arguing about this largely have no idea about the actual core discussions concerning the fundamental structure of the EU and broad sweep with grand statements like restart the EU project and "make it better". But when asking them "How?" they never come up with an answer, because a) they're not even aware of the actual problems and b) haven't even thought about the EU for more than 1 minute.

So yeah, this wasn't criticism towards smaller countries having a disproportionally high influence based on their population, it was an observation.