BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Noradin]

You're wrong on that though since EU cannot force UK to accept refugees if they leave the union.

So the Uk will break those treaties they made independently of the EU about the granting of asylum to refugees?
The will surely do wonders to its ability to negotiate with other states. A history of breaking your word is known to make you more trustworthy after all!

[Slant]

If only he were that smart.

Really David Cameron is an idiot.

Three times he called votes he wasn't sure he was going to win. He lost twice and narrowly one once.

Before I get to the example, let me state that if holding a consequential vote is in your power, and you haven't actually counted the votes yet to make sure you're going win, then your action of holding that vote is the very height of political malpractice. Leaving it up to fate if you win or not isn't more or less democratic. In parliaments the world over, in Congress, arguments are held and debated, but the vote is only held when the majority is fairly certain that it has the votes to carry it's motion.

Three times in the past three years David Cameron had this choice before him. Twice he blew it, once he narrowly got away with it.

The first time was over the bombing of Syria in late 2013 (Obama's 'red line' moment). Now put aside if you think that is a good idea or not for a moment. After it became clear the UN wouldn't approve it, the next forum for approval, like Operation Allied Force in 1999, became NATO. And for whatever reason, instead of unilaterally authorizing it, as he is empowered to, David Cameron rushed and held a vote on the matter... a vote that he didn't actually count the 'Yeas' and 'Nays' before proposing. He wanted to bomb Syria, but he went into that room guessing he perhaps could win. He lost badly and unexpectedly, and didn't just derail US Syrian policy that day, but single handedly de-NATOized the entire affair, because all NATO decisions must be unanimous. The Syrian-authorization debate then shifted to Barack Obama, being the spineless weasel that he is, looked for Congressional approval at a time Congress wasn't ready to give him squat (something he knew: he just wanted political cover to do nothing). Thank you David Cameron.

The second time was the Scottish Referendum. Never needed to be held. Polls were not in it's favor. The chance of it happening, and the resulting consequences (to the UK and the US) looked so remote, that David Cameron basically didn't campaign for months. Didn't take it seriously. It was in the last few weeks, when the Pro-Independence side rapidly closed the poll gap, that the hapless David Cameron shockingly realized that *gasp* this might happen! In the end it wasn't his speeches or his campaigning that snatched victory from the jaws of an unexpected defeat. It was Labour former Prime Minister Gordon Brown, a Scott himself, who delievered one of the best political unity speeches of the decade. Independence narrowly lost, and David Cameron's reckless, pointless gamble that didn't need to happen, was saved by his predecessor.

And now we have the third time, and the bomb finally went off.

David Cameron's political malpractice is truly epic. This is incompetence. Not genius. He was holding votes to reaffirm the position the already had, when he simply legally, morally, politically didn't have to. He didn't have to seek approval for bombing Syria, especially when the British Armed Forces, hamstrung by years of pointless cuts, would have made a small contribution at best. He didn't have to gamble on a Scottish Referendum that threatened to rip apart the UK itself. He didn't have to gamble on a EU referendum when Conservatives had been whining about the EU for decades already (as if that was anything new). Especially not in this toxic political environment where extremist anti-elite know-nothingism is sweeping the West.

If nothing else, hopefully this is a lesson for the rest of the Western World: the biggest example of "Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes". David Cameron played Stupid games for years, and he won stupid prizes, for years. No more stupid referendums. No more pointless show votes. No more letting extremists forces have their day.

Succinctly put. Perhaps I'm reading more thought into his retirement than he actually put there. But it could solve this problem for all of us by opening up more avenues and options to revert this idiocy without anyone losing face... perhaps more by accident than by design... or as we say in Germany, even a blind hen sometimes picks a corn.

[Macaquerie]

I am still in shock, not so much with the result of the referendum, but rather with Cameron.

He not only threw in the bin trillions of dollars (and God knows how much when they invoke article 50), not only he endangered the whole EU by his little adventure, not only he empowered the far right movement in Europe, but he also endangered the unity of the kingdom. And that's the major three because someone can say also about geopolitics, security and cross Atlantic deals..

I never thought anyone could be more moronic that Tsipras. But hey, i was wrong

Hey, he gave the people what they wanted, isn't that what we always say our leaders should be doing?

[Deleted]

Why not just start over and create EU2? Get rid of free travel and loss of sovereignty, the euro and keep all the good stuff?

The EU is at its core a single market - Its like a country.
Now just imagine, would the US work if the state of, lets say to pick a random example, South Carolina, could ignore things the federal Government decided? Oh wait, you wouldn't want a federal government, lets say they ignore the rules, (that the common market requires, written by some non entity...)
And there was no courts to take them to? - How would this work out?

[Slant]

You don't get bonus points for skillfully fixing your fuck up.

LOL, yes, that is probably true.

[Rockyreg]

Roughly 44% to the EU.

We'll see how much that is when the country splits, probably less when your economy loses schotland oil products among other things.

What percentage of UK GDP is related to EU exports though?

Scotland are going nowhere at least not until everything has calmed down over the next 5-10 years. In case you haven't noticed the UK isn't exactly swimming in North Sea oil profits at the moment.

[Acidbaron]

The EU is at its core a single market - Its like a country.
Now just imagine, would the US work if the state of, lets say to pick a random example, South Carolina, could ignore things the federal Government decided? Oh wait, you wouldn't want a federal government, lets say they ignore the rules, (that the common market requires, written by some non entity...)
And there was no courts to take them to? - How would this work out?

Considering Hubcap is probably a republican and a person that buys into the whole Teaparty fantasy, he'll probably see less government as a good thing. You know that whole "release the bull", "full free market works!" reaganomics, trickle down economics and all that other stuff they still believe works while it has failed for decades to bring in the wanted results.

[Shadowmelded]

So whats this about internal fighting in the labour party? Smth about corbyn being contested

Wasn't the whole Brexit debate basically between rival Conservative camps though? Why would Labour be seeing any fallout from this?

It's a coup by the right wing of the Labour Party (Blairites) who have been briefing against him since before he even took his position. They thought they'd have more time to get rid of him but now a snap-election might be on the cards they're forcing it through, against the wishes of the Labour membership and most hilariously of all; without a replacement leader in mind. And we all know how not planning for the aftermath goes, as the Brexiteers can attest to.

Funny thing about the Remain petition btw;


Here's hoping Scotland vetoes withdrawal, although by that point it might be too late as it would only happen at the end of the process, after negotiations had been concluded, by which point most businesses will have moved to greener pastures.

What percentage of UK GDP is related to EU exports though?

Scotland are going nowhere at least not until everything has calmed down over the next 5-10 years. In case you haven't noticed the UK isn't exactly swimming in North Sea oil profits at the moment.

If you haven't noticed, the UK isn't exactly a bastion for economic stability (or political for that matter. Scotland's economy is generally robust, not overly reliant on Oil (it only contracted 1% even with the halving of the oil price).

[Deleted]

Writing off or outright ignoring the concerns of the "losers," of this new economic project and largely not caring, but now, well its the time of reckoning because in grave desperation they revolt

Yeah, no. Because we still have a Tory government, likely to be led by Boris Johnson - who was pro-exit. This "revolt" is like running away from dad's house because his rules were too much for us, to go and live with the school headmaster instead.

This is the most fucking idiotic form of protest I've ever seen in my entire life. Fighting against The Establishment by siding with the other hand of The Establishment, which also wont give a shit about you.

Also, that article really comes off like that SJW meme "Don't you think anti-SJWs are as bad as the SJWs?". Uh, no. While not all pro-exit people are stupid racists, a considerable chunk - especially in the lower classes - are. If I had a penny for every argument I had leading up to the vote where my opponent's opening salvo was "well, we have to stop the immigrants coming in taking jobs and sponging benefits" and then not even knowing where those immigrants are coming from, or the rules regarding immigration in the EU, I'd be a millionaire myself.

[Noradin]

No I didn't. The country did.

There is nothing that I don't understand about that, as i've already said in this thread, we will get a deal now that is worse than what we had before and that is far more beneficial to the EU.

You seem to think that i'm not getting that and being a dick about my percieved lack of understanding.

Yes, we are all aware that the English language has a problem of unprecise pronouns and "you" can be misunderstood.
However, in this case it is pretty clear that you misunderstand on purpose.
The EU negotiates with states, not with random foreign citizens.

[Deleted]

Another Labour Shadow Cabinet member quits, that makes 8 quits 1 sacked today.

Corbyn still stating that he won't be stepping down and that he'll announce a new shadow cabinet tonight.

[Deleted]

What percentage of UK GDP is related to EU exports though?

Scotland are going nowhere at least not until everything has calmed down over the next 5-10 years. In case you haven't noticed the UK isn't exactly swimming in North Sea oil profits at the moment.

They don't really care - they don't like you, they like the EU - and this is their best shot at independence, actual independence, not your kind of nonsense independence.

[Noradin]

Exactly, so do you expect us to start negotiations when we effectively have no leader of our country?

Well that is really your problem, isn't it?
We do not have anything to do with it and we certainly didn't make your PM mess up.

[Deleted]

Corbyn still stating that he won't be stepping down and that he'll announce a new shadow cabinet tonight.

Good. Fuck those losers.

[Slant]

Why not just start over and create EU2? Get rid of free travel and loss of sovereignty, the euro and keep all the good stuff?

Because... oh YEAH GERMANY SCORES!!!!!!!!!!!!! anyway... because the underlying parameters that led to this perceived "unjust" EU are still there. Germany is and will be the strongest economy, have the biggest population and so on, Greece will in all likelihood still be a small country with a bad economy. These things lead to an EU that tries to accomodate everyone without being unfair. But nationalistic movements will always point to Germany trying to be the Fourth Reich and Greece trying to leech off everyone else. I know that's too simplistic and nationalistic bullshit, but other people don't. And it's easy to make up polemic arguments around this discrepancy.

And to make this clear: Free travel and the Euro are two of THE BIGGEST plusses the EU has. They ARE the good stuff. I can go to England at a moment's notice, just because I want to. I can go to Spain, too. Without changing money. I just take the money I got from my bank, spent it in Spain and take the money I get as change back home to pay my morning coffee with. THAT is a plus! That is what we want.

[Deleted]

Good. Fuck those losers.

I'd rather Corbyn step down and we get someone who can actually challenge the Tories in the next General Election.

Do you honestly think Corbyn could win?

[Mayhem]

Another Labour Shadow Cabinet member quits, that makes 8 quits 1 sacked today.

Corbyn still stating that he won't be stepping down and that he'll announce a new shadow cabinet tonight.

But the night has no shadows. o_O Witchcraft!

[draykorinee]

I'm a Corbynite, I thought he was the right man to lead the Labour party but he never had a chance, his own party clearly have no interest in a democratically elected leader and the press have never torn to shreds a new leader in the way they did.
He'll have to go now.

[Shadowmelded]

Another Labour Shadow Cabinet member quits, that makes 8 quits 1 sacked today.

Corbyn still stating that he won't be stepping down and that he'll announce a new shadow cabinet tonight.

What a shitshow. Northern Ireland Secretary of State voted for Leave, her Shadow has resigned, Scottish Shadow Secretary of State resigned, they have no Scottish MP's to replace him with so that'll probably end up being a Lord, Scottish Sectary of State says on Sunday Politics Scotland that Westminster won't block another Independence referendum. What's even happening anymore.

[Independent voter]

Considering Hubcap is probably a republican and a person that buys into the whole Teaparty fantasy, he'll probably see less government as a good thing. You know that whole "release the bull", "full free market works!" reaganomics, trickle down economics and all that other stuff they still believe works while it has failed for decades to bring in the wanted results.

The free market aspect of the EU is great, I'd keep that.

This business guy was saying an EU breakup would be very bad for him because he would have to get his products approved in multiple countries instead of one.

Free travel is what got you the Brexit I think. Free travel is great when times are good, when times are bad people from poor EU states move to rich EU states to get jobs which affects locals. The locals are the ones who voted exit.