What should the Warrior Legion title be? (minor spoilers)

[Toppy]

I don't think he meant vikings only fought in one way, but that vikings are only one type of warrior archetype from human history. Most warriors in fantasy RPGs tend to draw on some type of archetype from our world, and shoehorning WoW warriors = vikings leaves out many other historical eras and cultures that could serve as inspiration to make WoW warriors more interesting with richer lore.

Edit: To expand on why this is a problem... One of the great things about WoW warriors for 11 years has been the fact that every race could play a warrior. Blizz left a lot open to players to create their own class fantasy during this time, and I think a lot of warriors heavily connected the class with their chosen race. Each race in the game has its own type of warrior or guards, from the knights of Stormwind to the Deathguard of Undercity and everything in between. You could roll up a Pandaren warrior and imagine being a samurai or make an orc and be a relentless berserker fighting for blood and honor. There was room for everything. By shoving "VIKINGS RAWR!!" down our throats, it eliminates a lot of that. They could have created a new order that worked with 11 years of gameplay and player ideas, rather than throwing everything aside.

Didnt help that none of the warrior races fit viking trope either. At all. At most maybe dwarf? But dwarves wear thick plate and carry thick weapons as their generic warrior. And they dont exactly go well with water. Not really viking like. More like a combo of knight and viking. Hell, a Dwarf rogue is more viking like than a Dwarf warrior.

[Jngizu]

That's actually a great point. The Viking them kinda fits human, but how can an Ork warrior relate to that, or even a goblin? Thematically they are so far away.

[Damaind]

I don't think he meant vikings only fought in one way, but that vikings are only one type of warrior archetype from human history. Most warriors in fantasy RPGs tend to draw on some type of archetype from our world, and shoehorning WoW warriors = vikings leaves out many other historical eras and cultures that could serve as inspiration to make WoW warriors more interesting with richer lore.

Edit: To expand on why this is a problem... One of the great things about WoW warriors for 11 years has been the fact that every race could play a warrior. Blizz left a lot open to players to create their own class fantasy during this time, and I think a lot of warriors heavily connected the class with their chosen race. Each race in the game has its own type of warrior or guards, from the knights of Stormwind to the Deathguard of Undercity and everything in between. You could roll up a Pandaren warrior and imagine being a samurai or make an orc and be a relentless berserker fighting for blood and honor. There was room for everything. By shoving "VIKINGS RAWR!!" down our throats, it eliminates a lot of that. They could have created a new order that worked with 11 years of gameplay and player ideas, rather than throwing everything aside.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Plus there's a lack of notable warriors of our time that could be apart of our class hall (compared to other classes at least) This is also a problem with monks... they have a total of 2? 3? notable characters in their class order.

Most of them for us warriors are either faction specific and cant be used for the class hall or they are dead.

[Toppy]

That's actually a great point. The Viking them kinda fits human, but how can an Ork warrior relate to that, or even a goblin? Thematically they are so far away.

How does the viking theme fit human warriors at all?

Their warrior culture is based on knights.

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Couldn't have said it better myself. Plus there's a lack of notable warriors of our time that could be apart of our class hall (compared to other classes at least) This is also a problem with monks... they have a total of 2? 3? notable characters in their class order.

Most of them for us warriors are either faction specific and cant be used for the class hall or they are dead.

There have been rather sizeable lists of living warriors that could be in our hall.

Saurfang
Crowley
Jarod
Shado-pan Blackguard
There are numerous blademasters and dwarves that could fit
Baine
Mankrik

Really there are dozens of warriors in game. Especially quest NPCs, that could fit. And thats what makes up the bulk of the other classes halls: quest NPCs, even trainers. You dont have to be some super important figure to fit in a class hall. Many of them are even "faction specific" like Rexxar (Champion of the Horde), Nathanos Blightcaller, Moira Bronzebeard and so on.

[Jngizu]

What I meant is that at least Vikings or Norns or Vrykuls or w/e, at least look similar to humans. A lot of people even proposed Vrykuls as a sub-race for humans. Also not all humans are from SW and have the knight culture. Hell, even Varian doesn't really fit the Knight theme either.

But for an Ork? How can he relate to Vikings? Same for pretty much every other race not named Human.

[Toppy]

What I meant is that at least Vikings or Norns or Vrykuls or w/e, at least look similar to humans. A lot of people even proposed Vrykuls as a sub-race for humans. Also not all humans are from SW and have the knight culture. Hell, even Varian doesn't really fit the Knight theme either.

But for an Ork? How can he relate to Vikings? Same for pretty much every other race not named Human.

Human Kingdoms:
Dalaran: No warrior culture
Kul Tiras: Sailing culture. Not viking like in this case though.
Lordaeron: Knight
Stromgarde: Knight
Gilneas: Unknown, but now based on savage worgen ferocity
Stormwind: Knight

None of the human kingdoms have anything even resembling a nordic/viking culture. Varian slowly began working towards being more chivalrous from being a barbarian. But he was more a Conan the Barbarian reference than viking.

Nothing, not one thing about humans, relates to Vikings. Except maybe Vrykul themselves, but saying Humans are like Vrykul is like saying Trolls are like Night Elves.

[Jngizu]

Are you being extremely thick or am I bad at explaining my point? I get you hate the Viking theme, I don't particularly like it either, actually both of us agree on everything. What I meant is that genetically speaking, Vrykuls could be related to humans, so it could be acceptable for them, if introduced properly. But that's it, it's the only way I could see it working. I personally prefer the Viking theme to the Knight theme though but that's just me.

Anyway all I was trying to explain, is that the Viking theme wouldn't be so bad if only for humans and if introduced properly (which it's not). But no matter how well it is written, it doesn't fit any other race, like ever.

Also, I never talked about Human Kingdoms, it could be a lost tribe or something. But yeah Vikings are at least humans, so it could fit but not for the other races, that's all I'm saying.

[Toppy]

Are you being extremely thick or am I bad at explaining my point? I get you hate the Viking theme, I don't particularly like it either, actually both of us agree on everything. What I meant is that genetically speaking, Vrykuls could be related to humans, so it could be acceptable for them, if introduced properly. But that's it, it's the only way I could see it working. I personally prefer the Viking theme to the Knight theme though but that's just me.

Anyway all I was trying to explain, is that the Viking theme wouldn't be so bad if only for humans and if introduced properly (which it's not). But no matter how well it is written, it doesn't fit any other race, like ever.

Also, I never talked about Human Kingdoms, it could be a lost tribe or something. But yeah Vikings are at least humans, so it could fit but not for the other races, that's all I'm saying.

I'm saying it fits humans just as well as any other race: not at all. Blizzard is making no attempt to fit it to anyone.

In what possible way does it fit humans and their background more than any other race and their background? Once more, the connection to Vrykul is an entirely moot point as there is always a distinction made between the two.

Hell if you look into the background for it, the Vrykul that ended up the human nations are the least "viking" like of any other Vrykul tribe, which is why they left. They followed Tyr: the most knight like of the titan watchers.

Humans are essentially the descendants of Vrykul knights.

[mysticx]

.Anyway all I was trying to explain, is that the Viking theme wouldn't be so bad if only for humans and if introduced properly (which it's not). But no matter how well it is written, it doesn't fit any other race, like ever.

Also, I never talked about Human Kingdoms, it could be a lost tribe or something. But yeah Vikings are at least humans, so it could fit but not for the other races, that's all I'm saying.

The viking/vrykul theme could have worked, if Blizz went with more "Utgarde keep" with actual fighting going on nearby rather than the "everything is made of gold"-mess that is Halls of valor, where there is nothing going on instead of some moping Vrykul, add to that the whole "Halls of valor is a re-used 5-man" matter and the whole class hall thing is pretty much the biggest letdown of Legion for me...

[Damaind]

How does the viking theme fit human warriors at all?

Their warrior culture is based on knights.

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There have been rather sizeable lists of living warriors that could be in our hall.

Saurfang
Crowley
Jarod
Shado-pan Blackguard
There are numerous blademasters and dwarves that could fit
Baine
Mankrik

Really there are dozens of warriors in game. Especially quest NPCs, that could fit. And thats what makes up the bulk of the other classes halls: quest NPCs, even trainers. You dont have to be some super important figure to fit in a class hall. Many of them are even "faction specific" like Rexxar (Champion of the Horde), Nathanos Blightcaller, Moira Bronzebeard and so on.

Yeah there's a big list but a lot of them are faction specific that are pledged to Horde/Alliance first over the class order.

The viking/vrykul theme could have worked, if Blizz went with more "Utgarde keep" with actual fighting going on nearby rather than the "everything is made of gold"-mess that is Halls of valor, where there is nothing going on instead of some moping Vrykul, add to that the whole "Halls of valor is a re-used 5-man" matter and the whole class hall thing is pretty much the biggest letdown of Legion for me...

I think a mix between the Horde and Alliance bases in Wrath zones (architect wise) would've sufficed and then have our class hall quest be us gathering notable warriors to pledge to our cause with a ritual of some sort (sorta like Dragon Age Origins intro style.)
This way we at the end have a notable faction thats based off warrior (equal to something like the Silver Hand)

Anyone? thoughts?

[Toppy]

Yeah there's a big list but a lot of them are faction specific that are pledged to Horde/Alliance first over the class order.

And?

The same could be said for a large number of followers in the other class halls too. Re-read my post.

[Jngizu]

I'm saying it fits humans just as well as any other race: not at all. Blizzard is making no attempt to fit it to anyone.

In what possible way does it fit humans and their background more than any other race and their background? Once more, the connection to Vrykul is an entirely moot point as there is always a distinction made between the two.

Hell if you look into the background for it, the Vrykul that ended up the human nations are the least "viking" like of any other Vrykul tribe, which is why they left. They followed Tyr: the most knight like of the titan watchers.

Humans are essentially the descendants of Vrykul knights.

Which is exactly my point. It at least could have worked for humans if it was introduced properly, which it wasn't. But beyond that, even if done right, it would only work for humans.

But anyway, @Damaind said it best, there are so many themes for Warriors that trying to shoehorn all Warriors into one common theme was never going to work, even if done properly. Look at our history, European knights, Japanese samurais and Vikings are all warriors, but they are also so different in so many ways.

The best they could have done IMHO, is to create a new order whith every spec being radically different thematically, with prot warriors being closer to Knights, Fury warriors to Berserkers/Vikings and Arms warriors to Battlmasters (in the sense, cold and calculated). That's the only thing they could have done that would please the most amount of people, because there's no way to create something that would fit everyone's fantasy about their warrior.

[Toppy]

Which is exactly my point. It at least could have worked for humans if it was introduced properly, which it wasn't. But beyond that, even if done right, it would only work for humans.

But anyway, @Damaind said it best, there are so many themes for Warriors that trying to shoehorn all Warriors into one common theme was never going to work, even if done properly. Look at our history, European knights, Japanese samurais and Vikings are all warriors, but they are also so different in so many ways.

The best they could have done IMHO, is to create a new order whith every spec being radically different thematically, with prot warriors being closer to Knights, Fury warriors to Berserkers/Vikings and Arms warriors to Battlmasters (in the sense, cold and calculated). That's the only thing they could have done that would please the most amount of people, because there's no way to create something that would fit everyone's fantasy about their warrior.

Same could be said for many classes.

A lot of these arguments would apply to other classes as well is the big thing about all this. Like Orcs and Trolls dont fit all that well in the mage order. But at least in an overall sense the hall does fit mages. Then you get warrior and overall it fits maybe paladin and warrior not at all.

[Murlocbait]

The best they could have done IMHO, is to create a new order whith every spec being radically different thematically, with prot warriors being closer to Knights, Fury warriors to Berserkers/Vikings and Arms warriors to Battlmasters (in the sense, cold and calculated). That's the only thing they could have done that would please the most amount of people, because there's no way to create something that would fit everyone's fantasy about their warrior.

Actually, it's really simple. A new order sworn to protect Azeroth against the Invasion - give 'em a good military name like "The Bulwark" or "Fortress" or something, i dunno. Whether you're an orc, a blood elf, a night elf, or a human, every race has one thing in common: Azeroth is their home. So the new order would have one goal: protect our home. Then all warriors of all backgrounds come together with this common goal. Sure, once the Legion is thwarted, old animosities will come back, but that's ok - it only needs to exist for now, in Azeroth's greatest time of need. Warriors come together to plan how to repel the Legion and protect our world. Some will stand as defenders against the tide of destruction coming toward us (prot), others will be shocktroops used to shatter the Legion's strongholds and break open their defenses (fury), while others plan the attacks and move when strategy makes it most advisable to finish the fight and destroy our enemies (arms). All 3 specs represented properly, all races represented, and theme of WARRIOR comes through loud and clear.

Obvious choice for a class hall is some kind of fortress on the islands, right at the forefront of the war.

[Baracuda]

The viking/vrykul theme could have worked, if Blizz went with more "Utgarde keep" with actual fighting going on nearby rather than the "everything is made of gold"-mess that is Halls of valor, where there is nothing going on instead of some moping Vrykul, add to that the whole "Halls of valor is a re-used 5-man" matter and the whole class hall thing is pretty much the biggest letdown of Legion for me...

Then we'd hear the rehash arguments... If not that we'd have people whining it's too Horde or too Alliance, just look at garrisons.

@Murlocbait doesn't the place have an entrance? Should be able to have a forward base there...

[Toppy]

Then we'd hear the rehash arguments... If not that we'd have people whining it's too Horde or too Alliance, just look at garrisons.

We may have a rehash argument. But at least it would fit the class.

[Jngizu]

Actually, it's really simple. A new order sworn to protect Azeroth against the Invasion - give 'em a good military name like "The Bulwark" or "Fortress" or something, i dunno. Whether you're an orc, a blood elf, a night elf, or a human, every race has one thing in common: Azeroth is their home. So the new order would have one goal: protect our home. Then all warriors of all backgrounds come together with this common goal. Sure, once the Legion is thwarted, old animosities will come back, but that's ok - it only needs to exist for now, in Azeroth's greatest time of need. Warriors come together to plan how to repel the Legion and protect our world. Some will stand as defenders against the tide of destruction coming toward us (prot), others will be shocktroops used to shatter the Legion's strongholds and break open their defenses (fury), while others plan the attacks and move when strategy makes it most advisable to finish the fight and destroy our enemies (arms). All 3 specs represented properly, all races represented, and theme of WARRIOR comes through loud and clear.

Obvious choice for a class hall is some kind of fortress on the islands, right at the forefront of the war.

Agreed, this is what it should have been.

[mysticx]

Then we'd hear the rehash arguments... If not that we'd have people whining it's too Horde or too Alliance, just look at garrisons.

@Murlocbait doesn't the place have an entrance? Should be able to have a forward base there...

We have rehash arguments now: Halls of valor is also used as a 5-man instance, where warriors, supposedly the only mortals to be allowed in there, don't even get acknowledged as such, so it's tacky, it's lazy, and to top it off doesn't fit the warrior class.

[PunisherV20]

I don't know if this has been brought up at any point, and it very well may be a dumb idea, but what about a spec specific title? It would be something like "Jon the Furious" or "Armsmaster Joe"

Is that stupid?

[Valaritas]

Nifty title. Even if it doesn't have anything related to the lore (like the Mage title), it's still nice to fit into some RP.