[Enhancement] Future Legion Resources

[Imnick]

Enhancement is not an energy-based spec. The intention of design for non-energy specs with a filler is that they press that button at all times when there's no higher priority ability for them to hit. You also have a resource spender with no cooldown, so there is no downtime, so there needs to be periods of lack of ability to use your no-cooldown spender due to lack of resources, otherwise you would never hit your filler button.
If your definition of starving is "sometimes needs to spend time generating resources, by pressing an ability with no cooldown that generates those resources" then you're right, but I would describe that as a very poor way to define the word.

[nazrakin]

you have 150 max, you can talent into windsong, hothand gives free spender, you have wolves, doomwinds, flametongue to keep up.

if you rotation is solely "rb, rb, rb spender, rb, rb, rb, rb, spender" which is 9 gcds your ratio is off.

the gameplay is gonna change in a week with the new doomwinds, however, try pooling around 100-120, and besides procs you'll have a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio.

I didnt say that the rotation was solely that, obviously it isnt. However, that is largely how rockbiter is used when the goal is to pool and spend after stormbringer procs.

[garonne]

Having to spam rockbiter most of the time and still only lava lashing when hot hands procs is still starving.

then you dont know what starving means.
also, look at the test i ran, i disproved this "having to spam rockbiter most of the time" statement.

- - - Updated - - -

I didnt say that the rotation was solely that, obviously it isnt. However, that is largely how rockbiter is used when the goal is to pool and spend after stormbringer procs.

did you look at the tests i did?
this was your comment

hitting rb, rb, rb spender, rb, rb, rb, rb, spender, ect just doesn't make for an interesting or fun design. Yeah it ensures you "always have a button to press" but it still feels slow and stale because that ratio of generator to spender is weighed too heavily on the generator side.

i disproved that.

[Lucrece]

Man you people have more faith in Blizzard than I will ever again when it comes to Shaman. Our DPS will never, EVER, be something that people want to have. Blizzard will never let us back to where we were at the start of Vanilla.

Shamans were virtually nonexistent in raids other than as resto in vanilla raids. Enhancement was even more of a joke spec than elemental was.

I don't know what drugs you people are taking when you remember the braindead shitfest that was carrying half of a 40 man raid in vanilla and where class rotations made MOBA's look deep.

[nazrakin]

did you look at the tests i did?
this was your comment

i disproved that.

At a glance I can already tell that your data off because there is no way you used 245 actions in the space of 300seconds with the pvp premade. In either case, Im not sure how any of that is suppose to disprove scenarios where you press rb 3-4 times which, again, absolutely exist due to stormbringer procs, which is a frequent occurrence. Besides that I didnt intend for that to be a statement of the exact ratio of generator to spender use, my point is simply that "I dont want to spam RB" is what just about everyone involved with this discussion seems to be saying and that is feedback I think Blizzard needs to consider as they continue to tune the spec over the next couple of months.

[Sarkol]

Absolutely baffled at the debate going on about THIS patch, when we know more changes are due in the very next build that will improve maelstrom generation. Just stop it. It's useless, and all i see is slippery slope arguments about the past. That's called a fallacy. Learn some patience, wait for the next build, then test.

Also, just to clarify this once more time, Boulderfist as a talent is designed to make Enhance no GCD capped. It's supposed to be a slower playstyle for player's like me, and other who don't like spamming a generator. If you do not like it, then you have Rockbiter. If you don't like spamming Rockbiter, then you should play another spec i guess. The funny thing is, i didn't see any complaints about spamming Rockbiter before Boulderfist was implemented in it's overpowered state. It's simply wanting a play style that's overpowered and easy, which Enhance was. So finally.. Fast paced for Enhance is Rockbiter spam. Slower but more damage will be Boulderfist. Stop talking about how you don't like spamming Rockbiter, when Boulderfist is there for that very reason. You won't get the OP play style back with Boulderfist though. You'll actually have to manage your resources, to take advantage of procs. You can't just mash Stormbringer all day.

[nazrakin]

Absolutely baffled at the debate going on about THIS patch, when we know more changes are due in the very next build that will improve maelstrom generation. Just stop it. It's useless, and all i see is slippery slope arguments about the past. That's called a fallacy. Learn some patience, wait for the next build, then test.

Also, just to clarify this once more time, Boulderfist as a talent is designed to make Enhance no GCD capped. It's supposed to be a slower playstyle for player's like me, and other who don't like spamming a generator. If you do not like it, then you have Rockbiter. If you don't like spamming Rockbiter, then you should play another spec i guess. The funny thing is, i didn't see any complaints about spamming Rockbiter before Boulderfist was implemented in it's overpowered state. It's simply wanting a play style that's overpowered and easy, which Enhance was. So finally.. Fast paced for Enhance is Rockbiter spam. Slower but more damage will be Boulderfist. Stop talking about how you don't like spamming Rockbiter, when Boulderfist is there for that very reason. You won't get the OP play style back with Boulderfist though. You'll actually have to manage your resources, to take advantage of procs. You can't just mash Stormbringer all day.

I would say you cant get anymore useless than "if you dont like it play something else". If that was the attitude all along then we should never have gotten BF in the first place.. but Blizzard did consider that feedback and they created BF for people who dont like the base RB gameplay. If people still arent happy with the design then they should continue to say it and Blizzard -- not Sarkol -- will decide whether people need to find another class or not.

[garonne]

At a glance I can already tell that your data off because there is no way you used 245 actions in the space of 300seconds with the pvp premade. In either case, Im not sure how any of that is suppose to disprove scenarios where you press rb 3-4 times which, again, absolutely exist due to stormbringer procs, which is a frequent occurrence. Besides that I didnt intend for that to be a statement of the exact ratio of generator to spender use, my point is simply that "I dont want to spam RB" is what just about everyone involved with this discussion seems to be saying and that is feedback I think Blizzard needs to consider as they continue to tune the spec over the next couple of months.

i think its very presumptuous of you to tell me my data is off with literally no proof. i gave you my proof, go test it for yourself, or ask someone else to test. also, you spam rb 3-4 times every 35-45secs and thats a problem for you? as i've said, the ratio is a lot less than you're making it out to be and you're basing this on the ptr? an unfinished class where you spend at most 5% of your time for an entire expansion? i'll repeat again tho and end it here, the ratio of builders to spenders is not as bad as you think. with the current change to WF its going to be even better.

the irony of this situation is that, if spamming rb 3-4 times is a problem, then in the same breath you won't like spamming stormstrike 3-5 times when it double procs. if its not the spammy playstyle you dont like then its the fact that you want to use more of your spenders and that right there is the problem with the older design. you cared shit for your resources and builder.

either way, you don't have to respond to this, im ending the discussion here till the next patch.

[nazrakin]

i think its very presumptuous of you to tell me my data is off with literally no proof. i gave you my proof, go test it for yourself, or ask someone else to test. also, you spam rb 3-4 times every 35-45secs and thats a problem for you? as i've said, the ratio is a lot less than you're making it out to be and you're basing this on the ptr? an unfinished class where you spend at most 5% of your time for an entire expansion? i'll repeat again tho and end it here, the ratio of builders to spenders is not as bad as you think. with the current change to WF its going to be even better.

the irony of this situation is that, if spamming rb 3-4 times is a problem, then in the same breath you won't like spamming stormstrike 3-5 times when it double procs. if its not the spammy playstyle you dont like then its the fact that you want to use more of your spenders and that right there is the problem with the older design. you cared shit for your resources and builder.

either way, you don't have to respond to this, im ending the discussion here till the next patch.

The proof is that a premade with 13% haste doesnt have a gcd low enough to pull that off. And I dont like spamming stormstrike, I made a post in this very thread about that prior to this patch and Ive talked about how much more I prefer the gameplay of overcharge vs tempest, so the irony you just made up doesnt actually exist, at least not in this direction.

[Kruschpak]

How is stormlash actually doing? empowered stormlash in the same tier as tempest/overcharge, is it worth the 30% damage?

[Deleted]

Nazrakin, I want current design and if MS gain will be as bad as patch before I would need to look for another class. Your desires vs mine. Who is right? I dont know. But I dont want that newby spammy playstyle which all noobs want. You all gonna play few weeks and leave the spec blaming blizz for stypid playstyle. Where chaos and spam will take control. Why exactly do you want to cast lava lash insted of rockbiter? Why people who want interesting deep playstyle have to suffer because some beginer want to have spammy playstyle, overpowered one with only spenders. We have resource, we have rockbiter so start to look for other class And seriously if you are starving, learn how to play or order some pizza, because you are not yourself.

[Sarkol]

I would say you cant get anymore useless than "if you dont like it play something else". If that was the attitude all along then we should never have gotten BF in the first place.. but Blizzard did consider that feedback and they created BF for people who dont like the base RB gameplay. If people still arent happy with the design then they should continue to say it and Blizzard -- not Sarkol -- will decide whether people need to find another class or not.

Nope. The problem being people thinking/wanting Boulderfist to be something it's not. Boulderfist is not what people thought it was. People thought it meant being disgustingly OP, drowning in Maelstrom, pressing Boulderfist every now and then, and spamming spenders, and they complain on that basis, which is flawed, because it was never the intention. I actually blame Blizzard somewhat because they left it how it was for so long, which probably created false expectations. That being said, this is a beta, and the design of the talent was noted months ago, so i don't have too much sympathy.

[BiggestNoob]

Nope. The problem being people thinking/wanting Boulderfist to be something it's not. Boulderfist is not what people thought it was. People thought it meant being disgustingly OP, drowning in Maelstrom, pressing Boulderfist every now and then, and spamming spenders, and they complain on that basis, which is flawed, because it was never the intention. I actually blame Blizzard somewhat because they left it how it was for so long, which probably created false expectations. That being said, this is a beta, and the design of the talent was noted months ago, so i don't have too much sympathy.

Yes, because how we're going to make Boulderfist cause open GCDs is by fucking the entire spec over.

You're a dumbass kid. You don't get it. It doesn't matter how much MP we had. It was your choice to spend that on LLs. Instead of asking for another MP dump so you'd have open GCDs, you want the entire spec to suffer.

Your argument here is "if you don't like open GCDs, don't play BF". But your argument applies just the same in reverse. You didn't like spamming LL so why not run Overcharge? You want your entire spec to play a certain way, and for that you think your cost should be simply running BF instead of RB, knowing full well that it's mathematically impossible for that sole talent change to cause the desired outcome without the entire spec, regardless of talent choice, to be so MP starved that "gcd locked" = spamming a spender, which it wasn't before.

If you thought Boulderfist was OP (it wasn't, it's hilarious you think it was given the fact that SS when fully traited was doing 60%+ of our DPS), you could've supported nerfs to it so the other talents on the row were reasonable in comparison. That's a reasonable route to take: favoring choice. Guess what this change did? It removed choice. You run a MP starved spec, and with enough gear that means BF with open GCDs, and fuck anyone who doesn't want that playstyle.

Jesus fuck you're an idiot.


[Infracted]

[mkultra55]

I..... If that was the attitude all along then we should never have gotten BF in the first place.. but Blizzard did consider that feedback and they created BF for people who dont like the base RB gameplay. .....

How do you propose they balance Rockbiter and Boulderfist against each other?

[Imnick]

Yes, because how we're going to make Boulderfist cause open GCDs is by fucking the entire spec over.

You're a dumbass kid. You don't get it. It doesn't matter how much MP we had. It was your choice to spend that on LLs. Instead of asking for another MP dump so you'd have open GCDs, you want the entire spec to suffer.

Your argument here is "if you don't like open GCDs, don't play BF". But your argument applies just the same in reverse. You didn't like spamming LL so why not run Overcharge? You want your entire spec to play a certain way, and for that you think your cost should be simply running BF instead of RB, knowing full well that it's mathematically impossible for that sole talent change to cause the desired outcome without the entire spec, regardless of talent choice, to be so MP starved that "gcd locked" = spamming a spender, which it wasn't before.

If you thought Boulderfist was OP (it wasn't, it's hilarious you think it was given the fact that SS when fully traited was doing 60%+ of our DPS), you could've supported nerfs to it so the other talents on the row were reasonable in comparison. That's a reasonable route to take: favoring choice. Guess what this change did? It removed choice. You run a MP starved spec, and with enough gear that means BF with open GCDs, and fuck anyone who doesn't want that playstyle.

Jesus fuck you're an idiot.

That doesn't make any sense, adding another malestrom dump would not open any GCDs.
The only way to limit GCDs in Enhancement is to give your no cooldown maelstrom generator a cooldown. This is what Boulderfist does.
At any point where Rockbiter has no cooldown, you will not have any free GCDs, because you will want to spend every GCD generating maelstrom with Rockbiter. There is no reason you would ever have an empty GCD if you could be using that GCD for Rockbiter.

Boulderfist's design intent is to create these gaps in the rotation, and is in fact the only way this could possibly happen.
Boulderfist is by design the talent you should pick if you want open GCDs, so when he says "if you don't want open GCDs, pick another talent", he is echoing the intention of Blizzard by putting the talent into the game. This is clearly what it is meant to be for.
Your argument doesn't seem to understand how the specialisation works.

[nazrakin]

Nazrakin, I want current design and if MS gain will be as bad as patch before I would need to look for another class. Your desires vs mine. Who is right?

I carved out all the petulance but I will respond to the above: Right and wrong has nothing to do with the discussion. This is a spec that has essentially been rebuilt from ground up and if people dont like the gameplay then they should absolutely be providing that feedback. Likewise, if you do like it you should also be providing that feedback. If you like some things and dont like others... i hope you get the point. Its Blizzards game and theyll choose what is and isnt valid feedback -- not you, me, or anyone else within this community.

Nope. The problem being people thinking/wanting Boulderfist to be something it's not. Boulderfist is not what people thought it was. People thought it meant being disgustingly OP, drowning in Maelstrom, pressing Boulderfist every now and then, and spamming spenders, and they complain on that basis, which is flawed, because it was never the intention. I actually blame Blizzard somewhat because they left it how it was for so long, which probably created false expectations. That being said, this is a beta, and the design of the talent was noted months ago, so i don't have too much sympathy.

I doubt anyone is here looking for sympathy so you can keep it. Boulderfist should absolutely enable an unlocked gcd playstyle since it was created due to feedback from people that did not enjoy the base RB playstyle. Im happy that happened, Im one of those people myself. However, if people still aren't happy with the base design then letting Blizzard know that during the beta is exactly what they should be doing... just as people did to get BF implemented. Telling them to "shut up" or to "find another class" contributes nothing to the discussion.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

hopefully the maelstrom on wf is on all thel hits and not the proc

[Sarkol]

I carved out all the petulance but I will respond to the above: Right and wrong has nothing to do with the discussion. This is a spec that has essentially been rebuilt from ground up and if people dont like the gameplay then they should absolutely be providing that feedback. Likewise, if you do like it you should also be providing that feedback. If you like some things and dont like others... i hope you get the point. Its Blizzards game and theyll choose what is and isnt valid feedback -- not you, me, or anyone else within this community.



I doubt anyone is here looking for sympathy so you can keep it. Boulderfist should absolutely enable an unlocked gcd playstyle since it was created due to feedback from people that did not enjoy the base RB playstyle. Im happy that happened, Im one of those people myself. However, if people still aren't happy with the base design then letting Blizzard know that during the beta is exactly what they should be doing... just as people did to get BF implemented. Telling them to "shut up" or to "find another class" contributes nothing to the discussion.

Ok. Well, there's a difference between good feedback, and arguing from an impossible standpoint gameplay wise. But ok. Think i've wasted enough time on this topic. The spec will be in a better place than it was.

[Deleted]

Naz, I get what you say. it,s just this patch is first that show the intended way to play, as it should be from begining. If there would be add another talent like, ckbiter do minimal dmg or not at all but generates 5 times more maelstrom, it would be fine. But then thqt kind of playstyle could be op in some way and we would be forced to play with this if we wanna stay competitive. Like boulderfist before. If you didn,t take it you could not find a chance to beat other enhas. Secondly, all complain for ms starving, but we gonna get wf proc maelstrom, thats a fact that people mindlessly ignore, and when you try to explain that people go berserk. I can see already one person crossed the like which was intelligence unfriendly.

I just dont wanna enhance to move backwards where it was. Spamming lava lash and stormstrikes. I'm so happy we got resource to plqy with for my lovely spec, and you wanna make it irrevelant where choices cannot have any penalty. This game is already too noob friendly, why on earth you wanna do the same for shaman, where it can be interesting and deep. Smashing buttons is ok, so you have rockbiter. No idea why some people hate it, at least its something that grants additional bonus and not only dmg.. Like most of fillers for ranged specs. Damn rogue class must be dead, they have to use so much generators ;(

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

so rahter than spam medium hitting abilities on live we get to spam weak hitting builders>?