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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    Communism worked:

    1) Full employment.
    2) Universal healthcare.
    3) Low cost of living to the extent that a cleaner could live comfortably if unspectacularly off their wage.

    I'm not sure why some seem to think capitalism "works" when it can't do any of these things.

    Really, what are these amazing achievements capitalism has produced?
    It worked? AHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAAA!!!
    Tell me again, where are the communist countries right now? There is none. And no, China, Vietnam or North Korea are not communists anymore/either.
    And are you sure these points don't exist in capitalist countries?

  2. #102
    The only place communism succeeded is the US

    -----------------------------------------------------


    The Amana Colony stems from a religious movement started in 1714 in Germany by Eberhard L. Gruber and Johann F. Rock. They had both grown displeased with the dogmatism of the Lutheran Church and began to study the Pietism teachings of Philipp Spener.[10] Gruber and Rock fervently spread their beliefs and gained a following originally known as the New Spiritual Economy.[11] They believed that God communicated through individuals with the "gift of inspiration", just as he did in the days of the prophets. This individual was called an instrument (German: Werkzeug) because he was thought to be used as a tool of God's will to speak directly to his people.[12]
    To spread their beliefs, the group led by Rock and Guber traveled through Germany, Switzerland, and the Dutch Republic. The group became known as the Community of True Inspiration and followers were called Inspirationalists.[13] The Inspirationalists faced the opposition of the governments of the German states because they refused to serve as soldiers and would not send their children to Lutheran public schools.[14] Adherents to the faith would be imprisoned, flogged, and stripped of their possessions. To escape persecution, many Inspirationalists moved to Hesse, the most liberal German state at the time. Here, the number of Inspirationalists greatly multiplied.[15]
    Gruber died in 1728 and Rock followed in 1749; left without an instrument, the Inspirationalists numbers declined in the subsequent decades.[16] Within a span of a few months starting in 1817, Michael Krausert, Barbara Heinemann, and Christian Metz were all named instruments. Although Krausert soon left the church, Metz and Heinemann were able to revive interest in the Community.[17]
    Heinemann retreated from the Community's affairs in 1823, making Metz the sole leader of the church.[18] The Community continued to face persecution from German states for their refusal to serve as soldiers or utilize public schools. In the 1830s, Metz conceived of the notion of leasing a large area of land as a refuge for the Community. They first leased land from a cloister near Ronneburg, then from the Arnsburg Abbey.[19] They expanded to Engelthal Abbey in 1834, and managed all of their land holdings through a common management. It was at these estates that the philosophy of communal life began to grow within the Community. By the late 1830s, the Community was prospering.[20]
    The move to America[edit]
    The Hesse government levied harsher fines and rents against the Community in the wake of economic turmoil in the late 1830s. Metz and other leaders realized that they had to find a new home for the Community. On August 27, 1842, leaders of the Community gathered at Armenburg, Germany to discuss a movement to the United States. The Community arrived in New York on October 26.[21] For the next three months, church leaders examined tracts of land to establish a new commune. They agreed to purchase the 5,000-acre (2,000 ha) Seneca Indian Reservation near Buffalo, which had recently become open to European settlement following the Second Treaty of Buffalo Creek.[22] The first settlement was called Ebenezer after the Eben-Ezer in the Books of Samuel.[23]
    Over 800 members of the Community immigrated to Ebenezer from Germany.[24] The Community founded a "provisional constitution" in 1843 that defined the intentions of the community, which they called the Ebenezer Society. All lands and buildings were to be held in common and prosperous settlers were expected to pay community expenses. The initial plan was that, after some time, the land would be divided among the people according to their contribution of money and labor. However, leaders saw that the disparity in wealth, skills and age would make it difficult for all to purchase a portion of land—the community would fall apart as a result.[25] Therefore, the constitution was amended on October 23, 1850 to make the Community exclusively communal.[26]
    The 5,000-acre (2,000 ha) purchase was adequate for the first 800 villagers. However, the success of the community brought new settlers, and by 1854, it was apparent that a larger tract of land was needed. Furthermore, the growth of the nearby city of Buffalo concerned church Elders, who thought that it could become a bad influence. Buffalo's growth also greatly increased nearby real estate prices, making an extension to Ebenezer financially unfeasible.[27] Metz met with Community leaders on August 31, 1854 to discuss the situation, and the group agreed to send four men (including Metz) to search for a new home out west. The new Kansas Territory seemed like an ideal location, so the group of four traveled across the new lands. However, they could not agree on an appropriate location.[28]
    Two Elders were then sent to the state of Iowa to examine the large government land grants. Finding appropriate lands near the Iowa River, they returned to Ebenezer to encourage purchase. The Inspirationalists sent four men to purchase the land and all holdings in the vicinity.[28] The first village in what would become the Amana Colonies was laid out in 1855 (41.8002°N 91.8723°W).[29]
    The founding of the Amana Colony[edit]
    The new colony were originally to be named Bleibetreu, German for "remain faithful". However, residents found difficulty properly pronouncing the word in English. Instead, the Inspirationalists settled on Amana, a Biblical name with similar meaning.[30] Under Iowan laws, the Community had to incorporate as a business, so the Amana Society was founded as the governing body in 1859. Shortly thereafter, the Community agreed to adopt a new constitution. The resulting ten article document was very similar to the amended Ebenezer Constitution.[31]
    One early problem for the settlers was the lack of rail access; the nearest station was in Iowa City 20 miles (32 km) away. However, in 1861, the Mississippi and Missouri Railroad built a railroad station in nearby Homestead. Recognizing the need for the rail connection, the Community purchased the entire village of Homestead (41.7600°N 91.8706°W). This brought their land holdings to 26,000 acres (11,000 ha): 10,000 acres (4,000 ha) in timberland, 7,000 acres (2,800 ha) in cultivated fields, 4,000 acres (1,600 ha) in grazing land, 500 acres (200 ha) in settlements, and 100 acres (40 ha) in vegetable gardens.[32] Most of the land is in Iowa County, with approximately 1,700 acres (690 ha) in Johnson County.[33]
    By 1862, five more villages were laid, bringing the total number to seven:
    Amana vor der Höhe (High Amana) (41.8036°N 91.9407°W)
    Süd Amana (South Amana) (41.7752°N 91.9680°W)
    West Amana (41.8074°N 91.9654°W)
    Ost Amana (East Amana) (41.8090°N 91.8493°W)
    Mittel Amana (Middle Amana) (41.7953°N 91.8982°W)
    Each village had between forty and one hundred houses, a church, school, bakery, dairy, wine-cellar, post office, sawmill, and general store. Every able-bodied man was expected to serve in the fire department, and each village had its own fire department. Most houses were two stories and built with local sandstone, which has an unusual hue. They are mostly square with gable roofs.[34]
    The last of the 1,200 Inspirationalist settlers from New York arrived in 1864.[30] By 1908, the Community had grown to 1,800 and owned over $1.8 million in assets.[35]
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by victork8 View Post
    Marx argued that human curiosity would solve the incentive problem.
    And also that human labour was the same, since you for the lawyer-work-time should included time for study and failed students.
    He also viewed the workers as replaceable cogs (it's odd how this central idea is based on the capitalist's son contempt of the workers) - since the idea that some actually are better at flipping burgers (or lawyering) would interfere with his theory.

  4. #104
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ControlWarrior View Post
    They happen, they just aren't guaranteed. Some nations put more priority on healthcare over employment and vice versa. All an allocation of tax dollars.
    If a country has national healthcare etc, then these are socialist policies by definition.

  5. #105
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    It was not intended as strawman because by the same argument, Communist ideas are still viable and in use today - but that doesn't mean I go around saying Communism is great. The general trend also seems to be that the more balanced (more Socialism, less Capitalism) economies do better than countries with higher Capitalist influence, so it's debatable whether Capitalism is as important as you think but it's needed for sure, that I can agree on at least.
    Well.. compare that to a biological system. If you introduce bacteria to an acidic environment, do you think its more viable if the ones who cant survive there die off and the ones who can multiply, adapt and thrive.. or the ones who can survive waste resource to keep the ones incapable of surviving on their own alive?

  6. #106
    The Forgettable Forgettable's Avatar
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    Communism works when everyone is altruistic. Hopefully that answers your question.

  7. #107
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgettable View Post
    Communism works when everyone is altruistic. Hopefully that answers your question.
    Not even then.. if everyone was altruistic, communism would just happen naturally.. without the involvement of the government.

  8. #108
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    It worked? AHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAAA!!!
    Tell me again, where are the communist countries right now? There is none. And no, China, Vietnam or North Korea are not communists anymore/either.
    And are you sure these points don't exist in capitalist countries?
    These countries don't exist because capitalist countries made major efforts to destroy their systems.

    And no, of course you've to be not just uninformed but an actual idiot to believe capitalist countries have full employment and low cost of living for the poor, because that can be checked in ten seconds of googling. Most don't have universal healthcare-even if they did, this is generally considered a socialist policy.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    If a country has national healthcare etc, then these are socialist policies by definition.
    Yes, they are socialist. Marx would perhaps argue against national healthcare, because capitalism had to fail spectacularly. National healthcare is a band aid which prevents the transformation Marx wanted.

  10. #110
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    And also that human labour was the same, since you for the lawyer-work-time should included time for study and failed students.
    He also viewed the workers as replaceable cogs (it's odd how this central idea is based on the capitalist's son contempt of the workers) - since the idea that some actually are better at flipping burgers (or lawyering) would interfere with his theory.
    Where did he say that? Oh wait, he didn't. Because you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

  11. #111
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    It was not intended as strawman because by the same argument, Communist ideas are still viable and in use today - but that doesn't mean I go around saying Communism is great. The general trend also seems to be that the more balanced (more Socialism, less Capitalism) economies do better than countries with higher Capitalist influence, so it's debatable whether Capitalism is as important as you think but it's needed for sure, that I can agree on at least.
    No communist ideas are in use in any western countries. NONE!

    Again, you confuse these with socialist ideas..

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Categorical bullshit.

    Might be true for you, but it sure as hell isnt true for most.
    It is.. deal with it.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    Really, so you've read Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" have you? All of it? And Hayek perhaps? Milton Friedman?
    I hope he has, since Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" is a good read, as well as Friedmans' Free to Choose (it's by Rose and Milton; I don't know if they have any relation to other Friedman's like Kinky (who I've actually met once), Thomas and Art) whereas Marx' Das Kapital is pretty bad in terms of theory, but at least the manifesto he co-wrote has a catchy start.

  13. #113
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ControlWarrior View Post
    Yes, they are socialist. Marx would perhaps argue against national healthcare, because capitalism had to fail spectacularly. National healthcare is a band aid which prevents the transformation Marx wanted.
    Well, I think you mean universal heathcare of a hybrid system like the UK. Opinion is very much divided among Marxists on this. Some are millenialist and sit around waiting for revolution. Some argue for social change and activism.

    Ultimately any true communist society would have universal healthcare.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    I hope he has, since Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" is a good read, as well as Friedmans' Free to Choose (it's by Rose and Milton; I don't know if they have any relation to other Friedman's like Kinky (who I've actually met once), Thomas and Art) whereas Marx' Das Kapital is pretty bad in terms of theory, but at least the manifesto he co-wrote has a catchy start.
    Smith is extremely readable, much more so than Marx who is unbelievably tedious. He's also very different to how he is commonly portrayed by neo-liberals.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherise View Post
    No communist ideas are in use in any western countries. NONE!

    Again, you confuse these with socialist ideas..
    You can't divorce these two things. Again we have someone attacking a concept that they don't even vaguely understand.

  14. #114
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    You can't divorce these two things. Again we have someone attacking a concept that they don't even vaguely understand.
    Such hypocrisy! When it suits you, no! Socialism isnt anything like communism.. and now, no, socialism equals communism! Make up your mind then!

    But that aside.. a few socialist ideas can work in a modern society. But communism? Nope.. its a failed fascist ideology.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Nerd View Post
    Seems like a sensible and rational system.
    This thread is troll bait.
    Nonetheless, to answer the question seriously:

    1) Nobody managed to implement communism.

    Communism is supposedly introduced in several steps. Step 1 is to form a revolution, overthrow the current leadership. Step 2 is to secure communism, weed out the dissidents. Step 3 is where the revolution ends and everyone lives happily ever after.

    The problem is that new people are born every year, and they have new ideas on how society is supposed to be run. Towards that end, there is no end of supply of 'enemies of the state' and thus step 2 is never ending. Communism, as designated, has never been achieved on a national level. And anyone should be able to spot why.

    The idea of communism doesn't work.

    2) All calling-themselves-communist states were really just dictatorships, suffering from dictatorship problems

    As dictatorships, the communist countries suffered greatly due to the will of the 'glorious leader' being erratic at best, insane at worst. The legacy of Mao is the 'cultural revolution' that killed millions of his own countrymen. The legacy of Stalin is the political purges that eliminated almost every capable person in the country. The legacy of Pol Pot is the utter destruction of his country in a fashion so ugly that it makes North Korea look like a happy fairytale in comparison. Every single country that ever tried 'communism' ended up with a mad dictator that ran their country to the ground.

    There are exceptions. Lenin is still relatively revered in Russia. Yugoslavia did fairly well under Tito. Neither could be classified as free/lawful countries under those reigns, and you will find no shortage of people who eagerly tell you how bad they had it under their reign. But you could claim it's a comparable sort of success... even if it was just a dictatorship calling itself communist. The problem is, even if you assume Lenin/Tito ruled well, when they died... yeah, there is no Yugoslavia anymore, and Lenin's replacement, Stalin, was a nutjob by any rational metric.

    The idea of a great leader depends fully on the capabilities of that great leader. Even if one leader is good, the replacement likely is not. When the decent leader dies, everything usually falls apart.
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  16. #116
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    You just don't know what you are talking about and perhaps didn't understand what that professor was talking about.
    State capitalism is what China has and USSR had. They are nothing like what I'm describing.

    Socialism is required for Communism, so I don't see how you can say that it's just a matter of where you start. Makes no sense. it doesn't matter where you start, what matter is what you are starting. You can totally get to communism without a revolution. Not to mention (once again) that you need to start with socialism anyway, which too can be reached without a revolution.
    State capitalism is the only way to have no currency, you just can't go back bartering like the hunter gatherers did right from our system.

    Nope you should just watch the video, the only difference is how to start, not where to go, those are the same.

    https://youtu.be/ysZC0JOYYWw?t=2042 This is the precise spot where he explains how the difference between communism and socialism split, on how to get the state, not about what to do after this.
    Last edited by mmoc4a3002ee3c; 2016-06-26 at 11:06 PM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherise View Post
    Such hypocrisy! When it suits you, no! Socialism isnt anything like communism.. and now, no, socialism equals communism! Make up your mind then!

    But that aside.. a few socialist ideas can work in a modern society. But communism? Nope.. its a failed fascist ideology.
    Nations have adopted socialist policies, but I wouldn't consider them communist. Socialism is like adding an addition to your house. Communism is a complete rebuild from the foundation up.

  18. #118
    Because humans, no matter what they say, desire leadership, which tends to go hand in hand with wealth.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    Where did he say that? Oh wait, he didn't. Because you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
    It is sort of the central part of Das Kapital, try to understand this from Chapter 1 - "As exchange values all commodities are definite quantities of congealed labour-time" (it was a time since I read it, had to search for that quote).

  20. #120
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Nerd View Post
    Seems like a sensible and rational system.
    Karl Marx really was vague as to what a Communist or even Socialist State was supposed to look like. While Marx had some sharp things to say about Capitalism's negatives, and boy did it and continue to have negatives Marx was not necessarily very clever at engineering a solution.

    Once more, most Communist revolutions have not been communist in a sense, they have mainly been Anti-Colonial rebellions, and at times fell quickly to cults of personality and essentially became strong man dictatorships. Other than the Soviet Union, very few of the Communist states were as dedicated to the project of Communism as they were overthrowing a previous corrupt regime or throwing out a foreign power and installing a new power.

    The Soviet Union to an extent came to be the head leader of the Communist world but it quickly became not THAT different from the regime it replaced, though the new Tzar was no longer hereditary. In North Korea it is effectively a hereditary Monarchy.

    Why did the Communist world utterly fail? WELLL..... there is a lot of reasons,

    1) The Soviet Union and the United States spent more time fighting each other, the Soviet Union could never settle in and enact its project, plus it had terribly paranoid leaders and terrible leaders in Stalin. But more over the United States was dedicated to destroying the Soviet Union in any way it could, thus the system was sort of perpetually under siege and couldn't really devote resources to its project.

    1.5) Basically as Tyrion said in Mareen, "The Masters don't want you to succeed." Even if Communism were possible it would have all the resistance of heaven and earth since so many forces and so much of our society is essentially obliterated from the world by it. All institutions, the entire wealthy and mercantile class, all religion, and in general all concepts of political power are made void, that is a lot of people invested in "Not Communism"

    2) Technology, to an extent Communism is an idea that might just not be at present or at that time technically feasible.

    3) Human nature might play a role, complete equality might be unattainable, humans might not be able to live in that sort of "brotherhood of all mankind," and the Socialist Workers Paradise might be about as "real," as like Heaven or something. Its a nice idea but cannot exist in the material world.

    4) Its inherently incomplete, Marx never actually knew exactly what a Communist world would be beyond some vague promises.
    Last edited by Theodarzna; 2016-06-26 at 11:10 PM.
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    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

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