Thrall and orc blood-lust.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Garrosh was told of his legacy and believed the hype. He was raised in a culture that valued strength, and was presented with an enemy in the alliance. He made the mistake of allowing the need to be stronger than his enemies to consume him, eventually forgetting his honour, abandoning all he was and surrendering to the madness of Y'Sharrj.
Orcs are tough. They aren't evil. Draenic society wasn't all conquest, I believe the notion of conquest to prove your power manifested with the formation of the original Horde-there was no quarrel with the Draenei until Ner'zhul declared them the enemy on Kil'Jaeden's orders.
There is an innate blood rage in them, but it can be controlled. We saw that in Durotan's Lords of War video.

[TheDestinatus]

Garrosh was told of his legacy and believed the hype. He was raised in a culture that valued strength, and was presented with an enemy in the alliance. He made the mistake of allowing the need to be stronger than his enemies to consume him, eventually forgetting his honour, abandoning all he was and surrendering to the madness of Y'Sharrj.
Orcs are tough. They aren't evil. Draenic society wasn't all conquest, I believe the notion of conquest to prove your power manifested with the formation of the original Horde-there was no quarrel with the Draenei until Ner'zhul declared them the enemy on Kil'Jaeden's orders.
There is an innate blood rage in them, but it can be controlled. We saw that in Durotan's Lords of War video.

Okay, so WoD, no demonic direction and the Orcs still attacked the Draenei. No Horde existed in WoD prior to the gathering at the Dark Portal and no one had commanded they attack people, Chess mate? They all followed Hellscream, once again only 1 clan resisted.

[Deleted]

They weren't corrupted, they had the exact same ability to say no as they always had. They didn't because its not in their nature to turn away from war. They are warmongers, not good guys. When they aren't fighting others they are fighting themselves.

Ner'zhul wanted to say no, but couldn't. The Shadowmoon Clan would've been destroyed by the Iron Horde. Why did Grommash do they things he did? Because Garrosh showed him an incomplete vision of the internment camps, and he didn't want to be a slave. The Iron Horde fought for freedom of the Orcs, from their point of view. Had they seen the entire vision they might not have acted as such.

So yes, the Warlords were corrupt. They were being misguided by Garrosh into thinking they were fighting for their freedom.

[Deleted]

Durotan: 'For Orcs, War solves everything.'

They are brutes, savages and yes warmongers. Not necessarily evil though, funnily enough.

[TheDestinatus]

Ner'zhul wanted to say no, but couldn't. The Shadowmoon Clan would've been destroyed by the Iron Horde. Why did Grommash do they things he did? Because Garrosh showed him an incomplete vision of the internment camps, and he didn't want to be a slave. The Iron Horde fought for freedom of the Orcs, from their point of view. Had they seen the entire vision they might not have acted as such.

So yes, the Warlords were corrupt. They were being misguided by Garrosh into thinking they were fighting for their freedom.

So if one country invades another the correct answer is don't put up a fight, do whatever they say because that will save your life at the expense of others. The whole premise is idiotic, Garrosh shows them vision of camps, so Iron Horde opens the portal to the very planet they would be imprisoned on?! Why even bothered opening the portal in the first place than? They opened it because they wanted to attack Azeroth yet again.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Don't use the movie as a lore reference ever. They had no reason to leave Draenor that they knew of. Had they denied the Legions power they would have suffered and lost but the "planet dying" is just a made up reason to push the movie story along. The planet was just fine as seen in WoD and WC2. The reason the planet exploded was because of Ner'zhul and Gul'dans experiments which didn't even exist as a thing until BC and while canon, the damage was limited to Shadowmoon Valley in BC, Tanaan Jungle in WoD.

Draenor was definitely dying. Shadowmoon was a wreck and Frostfire and Tanaan were wastelands. Nagrand and Talador were the only areas preserved from Gul'dan's corruption. That predates the movie, it was a definite part of their motivation.

Tanaan, or Hellfire, looked like this prior to the destruction of Draenor:


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Okay, so WoD, no demonic direction and the Orcs still attacked the Draenei. No Horde existed in WoD prior to the gathering at the Dark Portal and no one had commanded they attack people, Chess mate? They all followed Hellscream, once again only 1 clan resisted.

The orcs attacked the Draenei under the direction of Garrosh, a madman. He convinced them of their destiny as conquerors.

[TheDestinatus]

Draenor was definitely dying. Shadowmoon was a wreck and Frostfire and Tanaan were wastelands. Nagrand and Talador were the only areas preserved from Gul'dan's corruption. That predates the movie, it was a definite part of their motivation.

Tanaan, or Hellfire, looked like this prior to the destruction of Draenor:

Hahahahahaha, so good. I love this so much I could marry it. Thats a picture of the Dark Portal on Azeroths end. Thats the WC2 representation of Blasted Lands LOL!

Also, are you saying the Sahara desert, or Siberia are the cause of Fel Magic? because you do understand that planets have different biomes right?

[StationaryHawk]

How many worlds did the Draenei attempt to conquer? Its assumed none, lore states that they fled rather than participate? Frostwolves still came through the portal when they could have stayed on the planet with the other clans. They are at fault for the fury the planets they fled to suffered when the legion found them.

Draenei are the Frostwolves of the eredar: a peaceful faction within an otherwise hostile race. Velen fled Argus in fear of his followers being slaughtered by the rest of their kind, and Durotan led his clan through the Dark Portal for the same reason after being outlawed for speaking against Gul'dan. If we're acknowledging that the draenei are not responsible for the actions of the eredar, the same must be provided to the Frostwolf Clan or else your logic is flawed.

[TheDestinatus]

Draenei are the Frostwolves of the eredar: a peaceful faction within an otherwise hostile race. Velen fled Argus in fear of his followers being slaughtered by the rest of their kind, and Durotan led his clan through the Dark Portal for the same reason after being outlawed for speaking against Gul'dan. If we're acknowledging that the draenei are not responsible for the actions of the eredar, the same must be provided to the Frostwolf Clan or else your logic is flawed.

Are you suggesting that the Frostwolves never killed a human? The Draenei aren't innocent, you have no lore for any of the planets that bounced to during their time hiding from the Burning Legion. Who knows what they did except the unwritten stories in the designers heads. The Frostwolves may have opted out but you can be sure they killed innocent people.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Hahahahahaha, so good. I love this so much I could marry it. Thats a picture of the Dark Portal on Azeroths end. Thats the WC2 representation of Blasted Lands LOL!

Also, are you saying the Sahara desert, or Siberia are the cause of Fel Magic? because you do understand that planets have different biomes right?

Sure, but we see in Warlords that they were not always like that. Hellfire was a jungle and Frostfire was frostier. My mistake, was looking for an image and couldn't find one, was assuming that "beyond the dark portal" meant the mission took place on draenor. The zone's referred to as Hellfire in the manual anyway, and I'm fairly sure it got that name for its terrain.

[TheDestinatus]

Sure, but we see in Warlords that they were not always like that. Hellfire was a jungle and Frostfire was frostier. My mistake, was looking for an image and couldn't find one, was assuming that "beyond the dark portal" meant the mission took place on draenor. The zone's referred to as Hellfire in the manual anyway, and I'm fairly sure it got that name for its terrain.

Hellfire peninsula, hell the entirety of Draenor was covered in the mushroom/swamp texture. The same mushrooms that appeared in WC3 until the developers decided to greenify Draenor in TBC for diversity, leaving only Zangermarsh showing the planet as we expected it to be. Frostfire ridge didn't exist in the original version of Draenor just as Gorgrond didn't exist. The the top 30% of the WoD incarnation of Draenor is wrong as far as all lore about Draenor is concerned but hey, who is going to notice right?

[StationaryHawk]

Are you suggesting that the Frostwolves never killed a human? The Draenei aren't innocent, you have no lore for any of the planets that bounced to during their time hiding from the Burning Legion. Who knows what they did except the unwritten stories in the designers heads. The Frostwolves may have opted out but you can be sure they killed innocent people.

The Frostwolf Clan crossed the Dark Portal to seek refuge from their own kind, and settled in Alterac Valley where they went into hiding. There's no lore to suggest they pillaged any human settlements or killed any innocent civilians along the way, and even if a farmer or two had died during their travels this would not push them past the degree of evil harbored by any other race native to Azeroth.

I'm not sure I follow your logic at this point. You're willing to make assumptions and paint all orcs as abhorrently evil despite evidence towards the contrary, but refuse to assign the same blame to the draenei for the faults of others of their own kind. If the Frostwolves are to be held responsible for the actions of the Horde in the First and Second War, neither of which they participated in, then draenei must be held responsible for the actions of the eredar on the basis that draenei are eredar. Your blanket statements simply don't allow any way around it. Either you allow exceptions or you don't.

[TheDestinatus]

The Frostwolf Clan crossed the Dark Portal to seek refuge from their own kind, and settled in Alterac Valley where they went into hiding. There's no lore to suggest they pillaged any human settlements or killed any innocent civilians along the way, and even if a farmer or two had died during their travels this would not push them past the degree of evil harbored by any other race native to Azeroth.

I'm not sure I follow your logic at this point. You're willing to make assumptions and paint all orcs as abhorrently evil despite evidence towards the contrary, but refuse to assign the same blame to the draenei for the faults of others of their own kind. If the Frostwolves are to be held responsible for the actions of the Horde in the First and Second War, neither of which they participated in, then draenei must be held responsible for the actions of the eredar on the basis that draenei are eredar. Your blanket statements simply don't allow any way around it.

I'm not doing that at all, I said twice now that the the Draenei could have done many many things, we simply have no idea what those things are because none of them are documented. We do know that the Frostwolves came to Azeroth with the rest of the army and probably participated in the original attacks on the Humans. They didn't cross over and than bail immediately. If you want to lump them together than go right ahead. The draenei may have participated with the rest of the Eredar initially, or they may have left immediately. It takes a lot of time to gather a nation size group of people together as they aren't all psychically linked to each other. Who knows what they did, I know that the Frostwolves killed Humans.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

But the Warlords were corrupt. They were corrupted by Garrosh. Not by fel magic or demons, but by being misguided.

So the status quo remains. Thrall was right. Orcs are good guys unless being misguided.

Uh, not really, no. Somehow I don't think the Night Elves would have reacted the same way as Grom did. That was the whole point. They willingly chose to drink demon blood... what .. twice? And they willingly chose to fall into the same fate, without demon blood.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Hellfire peninsula, hell the entirety of Draenor was covered in the mushroom/swamp texture. The same mushrooms that appeared in WC3 until the developers decided to greenify Draenor in TBC for diversity, leaving only Zangermarsh showing the planet as we expected it to be. Frostfire ridge didn't exist in the original version of Draenor just as Gorgrond didn't exist. The the top 30% of the WoD incarnation of Draenor is wrong as far as all lore about Draenor is concerned but hey, who is going to notice right?

Interesting. Probably a good call tbh, imagine if all of Outland was like Zangarmarsh.

However, from Wowpedia: "The warlock magics wielded by the corrupted orcs turned much of Draenor's vibrant landscape into a dusty wasteland as they, under orders from Mannoroth's master Kil'jaeden, decimated the draenei, enslaved the ogres, and took dark dominion over the world."
That's not movie stuff, movie has only Gul'dan as a warlock. Must have become more mushroomy post drying out. Maybe they were all that could survive initially but were killed in the blast?
I wonder if the mushroom brew in that tanaan cave is supposed to have some connection to the more fungal past?

[Nathreim]

Oh gawd, this is funny. Orcs are cave beasts, they always have been and always will be. The confusion you're feeling is Blizzards inability to follow a story and they just jump back and forth between "good and evil" because it creates longevity, and the lore readers love it to pieces because they think they are stumbling onto some secret reasoning to why the story changes like that.

Orcs are bad, always have been and they always will be. The orcs wanted to go to war in WC1, WC2, WC3 (they complained all the time about not having humans to fight), and in WoW. The Thrall philosophy for whatever it is only matters as long as he is in charge, as soon as someone else takes over they go right back to what they were doing before. I'm sure someone will be along to protest but even the WoD short stories showed them for exactly what they were, Durotan killed his own wolf, Kilrogg killed his own father, the Orcs of WoD followed Hellscream without question even without the demon taint, attacked the Draenei without demon taint, etc etc etc. They commited all the same acts without the taint as they did in the main timeline with it. They are bad by default, Thrall is the only reason for the difference. Them trying to make Orgrim a good guy is just laughable as he was the largest contributor to the Human genocide, leading the raids and horde in WC1 and WC2.

Genocide is only bad when Orcs do it. When the Alliance races do it to the Trolls its perfectly justifiable.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Ner'zhul wanted to say no, but couldn't. The Shadowmoon Clan would've been destroyed by the Iron Horde. Why did Grommash do they things he did? Because Garrosh showed him an incomplete vision of the internment camps, and he didn't want to be a slave. The Iron Horde fought for freedom of the Orcs, from their point of view. Had they seen the entire vision they might not have acted as such.

So yes, the Warlords were corrupt. They were being misguided by Garrosh into thinking they were fighting for their freedom.

So, in fear of becoming slaves, the Orcs built a portal and opened it to the planet where they thought someone was going to enslave them...? What?

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Draenor was definitely dying. Shadowmoon was a wreck and Frostfire and Tanaan were wastelands. Nagrand and Talador were the only areas preserved from Gul'dan's corruption. That predates the movie, it was a definite part of their motivation.



The orcs attacked the Draenei under the direction of Garrosh, a madman. He convinced them of their destiny as conquerors.

That picture shows the MU, where demonic corruption scorched the planet. That wouldn't have been likely for the AU Draenor to look like that...

And you're also disproving yourself. Garrosh told them they should kill people, so they did. Thats evil, bro.

[TheDestinatus]

Interesting. Probably a good call tbh, imagine if all of Outland was like Zangarmarsh.

However, from Wowpedia: "The warlock magics wielded by the corrupted orcs turned much of Draenor's vibrant landscape into a dusty wasteland as they, under orders from Mannoroth's master Kil'jaeden, decimated the draenei, enslaved the ogres, and took dark dominion over the world."
That's not movie stuff, movie has only Gul'dan as a warlock. Must have become more mushroomy post drying out. Maybe they were all that could survive initially but were killed in the blast?
I wonder if the mushroom brew in that tanaan cave is supposed to have some connection to the more fungal past?

Whats the source the information, a novel no doubt. As far as the game was concerned the planet was a swamp with mushrooms instead of trees prior to its destruction. The WoD reference to mushrooms is another "reason" story for why things are the way they are, the mushrooms grew in swampy areas such as Zangermarsh and the marsh areas you see in WoD. Doesn't sound like a dust bowl to me. At this point its irrelevant anyway, they've redesigned the planet twice now and overall its just getting worse. Pretty in WoD, but so not like its supposed to be.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

So, in fear of becoming slaves, the Orcs built a portal and opened it to the planet where they thought someone was going to enslave them...? What?

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That picture shows the MU, where demonic corruption scorched the planet. That wouldn't have been likely for the AU Draenor to look like that...

And you're also disproving yourself. Garrosh told them they should kill people, so they did. Thats evil, bro.

Garrosh became evil, but was not so innately. He allowed bloodlust to consume him.
The image mistake has been pointed out and I've offered other evidence.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Genocide is only bad when Orcs do it. When the Alliance races do it to the Trolls its perfectly justifiable.

Totally the same thing:

Shortly after their settling, something evil beneath the earth started to drive some of the elves insane, so they decided to press on into troll territory. It didn't take long before the high elves founded the kingdom of Quel'Thalas in the northern forests, not knowing it was an area sacred to the trolls. The forest trolls attacked the fledgling nation in ever increasing numbers, forcing the elves to use their strong magic. The superstitious troll war bands were frightened away and it was 4,000 years before they truly retaliated