Why did communism never work?

[Fencers]

Actually China is more capitalist than even the US now, thats why its economy is thriving. Its still technically controlled by the communist party but in name only.

My post was inclusive of the new economy China adapted in the past 20 or so years. That's the major thrust of my post actually.

[Deleted]

It however does require expansion and growth to exist, leading me to worry about the future. Now that the Soviets are dead, and the world is now global, were will the new markets be? The moonites don't seem to have any interest in the newest iPhone.

It does not.
There are wants and needs.
You can capitalize on both.
Capitalizing on needs is wise because human beings will always have needs in order to make it through the day.
Those needs are things like food, shelter, toiletries, entertainment.
Those things have esentially infinite growth potential because there will always be a humans subjigated to hunger, harsh environment, disease or boredom.

[Deleted]

Its false because you dont have enough life experience evidently, there are a plethora of jobs that are selfless, and within every job there are always unnecessary things you do. And people helping other people are not a minority, they are the majority, they are the reason we've even come this far as a species, its observable every single day. You dont need artificial constructs to be a good or productive person.

Not being able to relate to things doesnt make them false, so stop playing devils advocate just because you were proven wrong on the internet.

Its quite amusing that you think your uninformed opinion is "proof". It's even more funny considering I havent actually tried to prove anything. Anyone with half a brain already knows communism can't work and trying to prove it to them is as futile as trying to prove evolution to a creationist - a complete waste of time.

That being said, I strongly dislike all leftists, and that is my opinion, to which Im entitled to, especially considering these nonsense arguments you guys make.

[Theodarzna]

It does not.
There are wants and needs.
You can capitalize on both.
Capitalizing on needs is wise because human beings will always have needs in order to make it through the day.
Those needs are things like food, shelter, toiletries, entertainment.
Those things have esentially infinite growth potential because there will always be a humans subjigated to hunger, harsh environment, disease or boredom.

You can, but the rate of return will be less, and the cost of maintaining global markets will remain fairly constant. More over material resources are a concern, rising standards of living, birth rate fluctuations.

Running a complex system that can no longer expand and gain new rich resources and must instead depend on annual income is one thats headed for the grave.

[Wildtree]

Q: Why did communism never work?
A: No one ever tried.


All countries in that regard only ever had systems based loosely on communist ideas. But they were all totalitarian regimes.

[baskev]

Seems like a sensible and rational system.

Same reason why capitalism never worked. People like money and power. And the top gets all of that. But forget who makes their food, and takes care of them.

[Deleted]

Q: Why did communism never work?
A: No one ever tried.


All countries in that regard only ever had systems based loosely on communist ideas. But they were all totalitarian regimes.

How is that an answer? How can you "try" communism without a totalitarian regime?

Just think about it. Charity and volunteer work is perfectly legal in any western society. If communism could happen without excessive force and a fascist, totalitarian government enforcing it, it would be here now.

[Theodarzna]

Same reason why capitalism never worked. People like money and power. And the top gets all of that. But forget who makes their food, and takes care of them.

Capitalism and Communism both fail to accurately assess human nature and psychology, both also emerged in an age were people believed in a more Tabula Rasa view of humanity. Capitalism however had a complete rulebook written. Sure its a broken exploitable mess of a game, but at least its a playable game and the DM isn't forced to invent the mechanics on the fly.

Capitalism is a lot like 3.5e D&D, a great game but a fucking broken mess of a game.

Communism..... well it might be great, it MIGHT BE FUCKING AMAZING, but the rulebook never came out, just the authors notes on how great the game will be and some generalities of it.

[Wildtree]

How is that an answer? How can you "try" communism without a totalitarian regime?

Just think about it. Charity and volunteer work is perfectly legal in any western society. If communism could happen without excessive force and a fascist, totalitarian government enforcing it, it would be here now.

Communism does not have a totalitarian regime. It is all voluntary.
Some people wrote books about this..
here's one for example
https://www.amazon.com/Origins-Total...tag=diffnet-20

Communism and totalitarianism stands apart in their political and economic ideologies. Some people may link communism to totalitarianism but the fact is that they two are different in every aspect.

Totalitarianism is a term that means total control. But in communism there is no total control. While the society is all-powerful in communism, it is the state that is powerful in Totalitarianism.

http://www.differencebetween.net/mis...talitarianism/

There is, as said, a lot more literature about that topic.
But it all boils down to communism having a bad name. because of the regimes that are associated with it. But they were never communist.

[Jotaux]

just the authors notes on how great the game will be and some generalities of it.

So its like a Peter Molyneux game?

[Deleted]

You can, but the rate of return will be less, and the cost of maintaining global markets will remain fairly constant. More over material resources are a concern, rising standards of living, birth rate fluctuations.

Running a complex system that can no longer expand and gain new rich resources and must instead depend on annual income is one thats headed for the grave.

That I can agree with it. Sooner or later we're gonna need one of two things:
A) Big enough war to cause big enough loss of population in order to make new space for growth
B) Big enough frontier like space colonization which will give us new space for growth... pun intended.

I hope either B happens within my lifespan or I will die before shit hits the fan.

[derpkitteh]

because human nature is absolutely garbage and won't allow it to ever work.

either from corruption at the top, or greed in any tier, human nature is filth that will always fuck it up.

[Deleted]

It's simple. For communism to work every participant has to agree to share everything between them. The Soviet Union was ruled by a dictator who imposed the system upon them without a single thought to what they actually wanted. Communism is theorethically the most logical system out there. If ofcourse, you were thinking of the best for the people in a country and not the country overall. Capitalism has driven the world for hundreds of years, socialism is emerging in the world because we now care more for people than the survival of the fittest. If this evolution continues, eventually we'll convert to the system of communism for the "betterment" of the people. This ofcourse is just my opinion.

[Theodarzna]

That I can agree with it. Sooner or later we're gonna need one of two things:
A) Big enough war to cause big enough loss of population in order to make new space for growth
B) Big enough frontier like space colonization which will give us new space for growth... pun intended.

I hope either B happens within my lifespan or none of them and I will die before shit hits the fan.

Puns should always be intended,

You sir are doing Gods work, truly. XD

[Auxora]

To those using the China example, China is hardly communist anymore. The only communist elements left are just that the government maintains an overall somewhat heavy hand in setting moral/business boundaries. It's really a completely capitalist system up to a company reaching somewhere between $500M-$1B in value, at which point it's taken over by the state for state benefit in profits. Some could say the US and other Western countries are close to this in high corporate regulations and taxes.

But that heavy-handedness prevents some loopholes in Western capitalism as well, where freedoms sometimes work against it's own country. For example, companies in the West using loopholes to move business HQ in name to other countries to avoid taxation. There is a long list of companies that have done that. The capitalist governments say they don't want to limit companies from doing it in the name of freedom.

There needs to be a new name for China's system, since it's definitely not communism by any stretch. A quick look at Beijing or Hong Kong will tell you that. Even North Korea *does not* consider themselves communist, their system they call Juche (in their case it's just a different name for a military dictatorship).

The Karl Marx communism died quite a while ago and didn't work for the simple reason that in theory it sounds appealing to many, but in practice it only works if everyone pulls their weight for the country. And it turned out they don't. Maybe 1/2 do, the other 1/2 slack since there isn't incentive to work hard. And just imprisoning and torturing masses of people that don't pull their weight just alienates the larger populous in the long run. If you could program everyone to pull their weight without incentive it probably would work. Tell a teenage kid to mow your grass, but that they won't get paid and that it's just for the greater good of the community, and see how long the grass grows lol.

[Deleted]

And yet I was responding to someone who claims you need artificial constructs to have good and productive people, a claim that is observably false by looking out the fucking window for 5 minutes, thats not an argument for communism, its an argument for common sense.

Yeah I find it pretty ironic you use terms like "leftist" on an international forum and also claim other people have half a brain.

But the luxury of being right means I dont actually have to give a shit about your wrong opinion, so you can continue reeking of someone who hasnt left the house in a year, or you can go out, observe the world around you, be a good human being and see the same be returned. You can research the jobs people do, where they put themselves at risk, or work tirelessly for what they believe in, all with no guarentee of even a stable life, or a life at all.

Most people are motivated by a reward.. a better life, this is a fact and is confirmed by differentiated salaries. If people were really as willing and as capable to do all the hard jobs, like becoming a doctor or a lawyer. Why the hell would any company pay them anything above minimum wage? Especially considering they dont even want to pay that to those burger flippers and would rather replace them with machines.

Ah and another lovely mistake. Other people? No.. people who think communism can work. Dont try to mislead me.

And third.. personal insults.. see, I dont even have to try, youre a textbook case. Oh and by the way, you forgot to call me mean and use one of those buzzwords like racist or cis gendered white woman or whatever.

[Theodarzna]

So its like a Peter Molyneux game?

Yes, that would be more apt.

The problem of Communism is its just an idea, like a Kickstarter with great info you can get super into, like OMFG its going to fix the bullshit in the old game. Because omg, Capitalism is a broken exploitable mess of a game. Though playable and we have spent hours, years playing it and its fun and great, it is what it is. But then the author never finished his kickstarter. The blogger who criticised all the shit wrong with the old game never ended up releasing his mangum opis that would be the new awesome game, instead he released an IDEA for a game but no written rules, no mechanics no anything.

Maybe it was going to be great, maybe it was shit, but alas it was at the Kickstarter stage and never got released. Some people got together and tried to make a working game, but....... well....... results varied from either a 3.5e clone but without the charm or fun, to dumpster fire.

[Wildtree]

It's simple. For communism to work every participant has to agree to share everything between them. The Soviet Union was ruled by a dictator who imposed the system upon them without a single thought to what they actually wanted. Communism is theorethically the most logical system out there. If ofcourse, you were thinking of the best for the people in a country and not the country overall. Capitalism has driven the world for hundreds of years, socialism is emerging in the world because we now care more for people than the survival of the fittest. If this evolution continues, eventually we'll convert to the system of communism for the "betterment" of the people. This ofcourse is just my opinion.

I think this is a pretty good opinion.
We will eventually, as humans, have to come to such system. Because we stir ever closer to 0 work hours over time.
Someday, down the road, 50, 100, 150 years from now, we've mastered to create machines/robots for every task there is that we do.
And then we still need some kind of a living.
Future generations got quite some obstacles to overcome, but they will.

[Deleted]

Communism does not have a totalitarian regime. It is all voluntary.
Some people wrote books about this..
here's one for example
https://www.amazon.com/Origins-Total...tag=diffnet-20


http://www.differencebetween.net/mis...talitarianism/

There is, as said, a lot more literature about that topic.
But it all boils down to communism having a bad name. because of the regimes that are associated with it. But they were never communist.

Well communism CANT work.. its a fact. Without a totalitarian system enforcing it, human nature would just topple it. Either no one does anything and it would just stagnate to a point of revolt or the powers that be will have to turn things around like they did in China.

[Wildtree]

Well communism CANT work.. its a fact

I have a feeling that you don't know what fact means.
There is no fact, because communism has never been tried.
It is merely an ideology for now.